Top 20 things I have learned in the first 10 years of the sign business

[master design decals 6]

Hi everyone. I don't post on here very often but I do read alot of your posts. This is the ONLY forum anywhere that does not blast you for asking a simple question. You are all great people and I appreciate your posts because you have answered numerous questions, all politely, which goes a long way with alot of people.

So, I thought I would contribute my top 20 things that I have learned as I make the decision to put in another 10 years or switch to something else. Please feel free to add your own lessons. The money is decent but it comes at a cost.

20. Copyright laws are in place for a reason.

19. Bartering is bad. The sign guy loses every time.

18. Churches expect you to donate everything. They rake in thousands of dollars every Wednesday and Sunday but refuse to spend it and expect you to foot their bill. This is not meant to cause a religion debate….I’m just stating a fact.

17. Charge something upfront for your any job. Making stickers is time and supply consuming. They come in, want this intricate design done in a huge hurry for the festival this coming weekend. Then you never hear from them again. Charge something upfront so you don’t feel too bad tossing out 600 “rush job” stickers that have been on your shelf for a year.

16. No artwork should be free. The artwork is time consuming and you always have to redo it 3 times before they approve it. Then they want you to email it to a printing shop for their letterhead and business cards to be printed. You just wasted a lot of time and money and in this business, time is money.

15. Static is very costly. Whoever invented static guard is a friggin genius.

14. Humidity is a pain. A dehumidifier is worth its weight in gold.

13. The wind always blows at the worst possible time, you know, that nice spring day and you have the doors and windows open as you prepare to apply lettering to that 8 foot long banner. All of a sudden......

12. Sometimes 2 rolls of the same brand of vinyl, the same color, the same size are actually different.

11. Wraps are a pain in the ass.

10. Being self employed, every single one of your friends or family members want a job but nobody wants to work.

9. Being the cheapest bidder on a job has tons of consequences and it never pays off in your favor. Uncle Bob down the street can do it for "xxx" according to the customer. I have started recommending them just going to Uncle Bob but somehow the customers end up coming back to my shop. I dunno. Stand your ground with your bid.

8. It never ever ever pays to be in a hurry.

7. Avoid cheap vinyl on multi-layer jobs.

6. Application tape quality matters, alot.

5. It is hard to make any money lettering racecars. They want a $600.00 job done for $100.00 and want it done in 2 hours. I love racers, my husband is one, but...

4. It is impossible to please customers who buy off of your website because they can't read the application instructions, then they screw up the sticker, then blame you for it being "low quality". I guess that is the stickers fault?! I learned to read as a child. I think 99.6% of internet buyers didn't.

3. People are very rarely rude, unreasonable and abusive to your face, but are borderline criminal in an email. That AMAZES me how someone can be so rude in writing.

2. I love my dog, she never argues, lies, steals, and she could care less about different shades of beige.

1. The number one thing I have learned and please remember this....The less money you make on someone, the biggest pain in the ass they are. If you give an inch to a customer, they take 10 miles. Refrain from the "buddy deal".

With that being said, I guess I know what to expect in the next 10 years. I wish someone would have told me about all of the pros and cons, but in all reality, would I have listened? Probably not.

[MZ SKEETER 4,709]

great post :thumbsup:

[master design decals 6]

great post :thumbsup:

Thank you! These are the things that never change, no matter how seasoned you are. I bet we could all write one heck of a book about our experiences. Just when I think that I have seen it all, something else happens. I had a guy literally crap his pants in the shop last week, or in other words, sharted. It was one of those times where I started giggling, tried to hide it and the more I tried to stop, the harder I laughed and ended up to where I could not stop. I tried thinking of something sad but went right back to laughing so hard I was crying. That is when I realized it was time for a long Labor Day weekend. It was super gross and really embarassing for him but there was nothing I could do except show him to the bathroom and hand him a whole roll of paper towels. I know he could hear me roaring out there and spraying Febreeze. He has not returned. I'm kind of embarassed for laughing so hard but it was one of those times that happens to humans when you overload the "proper composure" scale and all rules are broken.

Keep in mind that when I seem to rag about customers, I am meaning that most of them are perfect, but there are the few of them running around loose in society that seem to have a way of changing my outlook on things. I do have a great bunch of customers that are so loyal and are truly a pleasure to work with. It just takes one to screw everything up.

What are the best and worst you all have seen?

[hawkeyeent 0]

Great post! FOr someone still trying to find their niche and place in the sign industry, this gives me a lot of confidence in standing my ground on pricing

[NukleoN 34]

Great post. I'm a freelancer as well (digital art and sometimes decals) and your points really hit home.

Couple points I'll add to your great list or expound upon:

*Triple-check your work. It's never as fun coming from the client.

*Spot-on about the cheapest clients being the hardest to work with. Clients attitudes actually shift when you charge real prices, and it weeds out the flakes. Fully-agree about being firm on your rates. My rates are as low as I can reasonably make them before it's not worth doing the job at all.

*Copyright law. Spot-on again! There can be temporary gain but the price to pay is not worth it. When you're caught, it's too late.

*I've made art for churches. I actually charge them top-dollar because my tax money unfairly subsidizes them. (This is not intended to start a religious debate; it's just a statement of fact). I'm definitely willing to barter as long as the trade is art for money.

*Spelling and grammar are worth triple-checking if you're creating anything with words. If you're not sure about something, have someone else who's better at this stuff check your work. Better a minor embarrassment now than an embarrassed and upset client later (and having to re-do work).

[stetson5331 80]

Very nice and well worth pinning this thread..Most new people getting into this stuff should read and reread this thread...

[roxanneupnorth 106]

I love bartering but realized while everyone needs signs, I do not need everything....So it really depends on who initiates the transaction...

[prototype66 20]

Absolutely awesome post...thank you and all words taken to heart.

I have already learned a few odf them the hard way!

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

Actually bartering is how I got in the signage business I was having my van lettered for the handyman service and one of the services listed in the lettering was electrical the guy asked if I would install a backlit sign in trade for the lettering and 20 years later I am still doing installs for him and the other sign company's in the area. I eventuallygot into cutting vinyl but will not compete against the company's that I install for.

Dan

[BannerJohn 1,324]

$400 mattress bartered for 2 banners that I had $50+ 3 hours in. Not bad, I think.

[BearlyRich 167]

one custom logo

half dozen t-shirts

half dozen tote bags

set magnetic signs for car

2x3 sign

2x6 banner

a few wall arts

bartered for wife not throwing me out of the house for buying a vinyl cutter!

[vezman71 4]

one custom logo

half dozen t-shirts

half dozen tote bags

set magnetic signs for car

2x3 sign

2x6 banner

a few wall arts

bartered for wife not throwing me out of the house for buying a vinyl cutter!

As I get ready to do my first big show....my wife loves this quote. lol

[Bertie 5]

Although I'm a newbie to sign work, I've been in business many years in the retail trade and what's been written here is pretty much true in any trade. There was the time my wife was dealing with a well spoken gentleman, the deal was just about to be clenched when last nights vindaloo finally caught up with me, at least I was able to walk out, my wife couldn't. I took some stick for that! Or the time a fellow came in and asked if I sold left handed fishing rods, naturally I obliged and sold him one, but cracked up before he could get out the door. There are so many more......

Bertie.

[liquidfusion 69]

Thank You for posting!!!

Bruce

[costisefu 0]

very cool. I will print this and put in my office to remember every day!

[zdevillez 1]

Thank you for this post I could stand to learn a lot from it seeing as I am so green in the business and "too nice of a guy" according to some.

[liquidfusion 69]

Can we PUHLEEZ sticky this thread..... Im new and for the most part naive... At over 6'2" and 300ish I usually dont have a problem with people taking me to be naive. Im finding over and over that when all else fails see Rule #1.....

Case in point, since retiring from paid Fire Rescue I work part time as a Critical Care Paramedic making really long runs with really sick patients to specialty hospitals, and work as a Volunteer Fire Fighter with our county here. Well since finding out the new guy has a cutter, everyone is coming in droves, and that includes our command with the request that instead of sending out plain jane membership cards for their donors, I could do auto tags with the wording on there. I mentioned yes, no prob, EVEN offered to do labor for free (yes I know, go to corner and chastise thine self), to which I was told GREAT, how soon can you get them done... I said once the artwork and contract are approved give or take a week.... So contract approved, white tag 6x12, wording, maltese, NON REFLECTIVE ORACAL 651 in red.....Reflective was discussed, and cost was explained, and turned down by command.... So, I get the simple design tweaked, cut a few and drop them off for approval....more like just to show, hey here they are, how many do you want.... I get a phone call.... How much is reflective, blah blah blah you need to sit down and do an itemized quote with reflective and non reflective, before you do anything else.....It should be noted that the phone call came from a jackass ex capt that nobody likes.... SO here I sit, in a holding pattern for some work thats gonna put absolutely jack shittake in my coffers.... all in the name of trying to do good things for people.....

Dont give them an inch, cause they will take a mile, and not want to pay.... And please keep in mind that the stupid people are breeding at a rate exponentially faster than the normal people...

FWIW here is what I came up with.... priced at 2.00 a tag...... I swear you cant do anything nice for people without them treating you like a jackass.....

[thor2015 0]

Great post! I agree- at least the first part should be made a sticky.

I've always found that "friends" and "buddies" come out of the woodwork if they know you have something they might need. True friends will be interested in making the project fair to you in return.

Regarding copyrighted materials, I have them but they are strictly for personal use. I will, however cut a logo if I have the prior written approval from the copyright holder. I came to the realization that if I cut a copyrighted image for a friend, I would be digging a hole for myself and opening myself up to the "you did it for xxx... why not for me?" questions. I've heard stories of people who have clipart CD's with copyrighted logos doing great business until someone shows up undercover, buys a decal and comes back with a court order. This is usually accompanied with a hefty fine and the confiscation of equipment. I still have a bit to learn regarding copyrights and how to tell if the approval is legitimate so for the time being copyrights are on my "do not cut" list for anyone.

Quality materials FTW. When I first started getting into this I found some "cheap" vinyl at Hobby Lobby. Fortunately I didn't have any orders then to fill but it was a pain to weed and wanted to tear especially on the small details. I ended up throwing out the cut roll and returning the other.

Proper equipment also goes a long way. Again, when starting out I heard of people using old credit cards as squeegees. I did a few runs this way until I purchased an actual squeegee and it made a HUGE difference not only in the final application but it made the small details of my vinyl adhere much better to the transfer tape and was less headache to peel off of the backing paper.

Start slow, and if not experienced get your practice by investing in personal projects. Before I touched anyone's car I applied vinyl to my own over and over again until I could produce repeatable quality. It cost me a few bucks in vinyl, but it was worth it to become experienced in the process before I had to learn the hard way on someone else's stuff. Again, I still have some things to learn but I know what those things are and will not experiment on a customer's property to figure it out.

One final piece of advice I have is to try and get a color chart especially if you don't have a fully stocked inventory. Since I am not yet doing this full time, I have had people approach me on the fly for a project. The color chart is VERY useful when letting them pick out colors.

Oh, and I must belong to a rare church. Mine ordered 250 decals from me and gladly paid 2.50 each for them. After coming here and reading some of the posts I realize I can probably come down a bit but at least I wasn't asked to do all of that for free and was more than fairly compensated.

[Rodger 527]

regarding copyrighted stuff , 1 thing I learned about laws from a VERY expensive lawyer my buddy was using ... " 2 or more people agreeing to something does not make it legal " was the jist of the lesson . It was involving zoning laws & even though the county permit center & the specific dept gave a use permit for a mobile home , it was illegal none the less . Paying the use permit for 20+ years had NO effect . So , no matter who , what , where etc .. if you break any law , YOU will be at the front of the line , not anybody who agreed with you , gave you permission or any paperwork , said this or that is legal etc . 1rst person in line gets to pay the lawyer , fines , out of court settlements . They may have some grounds to go after others , but is usually not worth the expense .

[thor2015 0]

Rodger,

This is the problem with our legal system. The worst company I've heard of so far is Harley Davidson. In doing my research I read a post made by a guy who was approached by a Harley Dealership to make some Harley decals. When Harley Davidson found out, they sent the C&D to the sign maker. It would seem to me that a system that makes sense would have taken action against the Harley employee. You have our system spot on, but it still makes no sense. In your example the department responsible for issuing permits should have been responsible since not only is it their job but they should be more in the know about specific permit laws.

Liquidfusion's post also brought up another interesting point. It is mentioned that a contract was drawn up and agreed to. If I read it right however, it seems that the contract didn't do any good in the end and the order still has to be redone. What is the point of drawing up a contract if the customer gets to alter it in the end?

[Rodger 527]

Disney is right up there as far as proactive defending ownership rights with copyrighted stuff . You missed my main point . No department of the local county can make something illegal , legal by issuing a permit or saying/doing anything without going thru the legal procedure . The guy i am talking about thought he could get it " grandfathered " in because it being there for 20 years & having obtained a use permit . Turns out the use permit did not carry any legal weight & the mobile home was put there after the law was made so he lost . In your example , Harley Davidson owns the rights & they make a TON of money with it . They spent the time , money etc to make it valuable . The dealership does not own it so any contract/agreement/order without the official legal ok from HD corporate does not make it legal to infringe on the copyright . My wife worked at a HD dealership & she was in charge of " motor clothes " & several other departments . She said that dealershp/employee most likely got some wrath also because corporate HD would not have made any $ off of those items . Another sillier example = every member on this forum could agree that somebody could take your car ... but nobody here has the ownship/right.. legality to do so ... ONLY you . I am not spotless by any means , but copyright infringement ,. pirateing software , PPV events etc is illegal & wrong ... IF making using something for personal use or watching a PPV view that you would not buy under any situation ....1 stage of wrong/illegal , if making or using for profit , much more a serious stage & loss of profit for who is rightfully due it . There is much speculation about " making it for profit" , " selling " , " making " etc , but I think being in possesion is also illegal . There is a realistic line I believe , but I agree owners of copyrighted stuff should have protection .. most times it is just a civil matter , but it is also a criminal offense . Richard Childress ( Nascar team owner & legal owner of the # 3 Dale Earnhardt copyright ) won a million doallar award from a smaller company over infringement several years ago , plus there was some criminal punishment from my memory .

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

One more item to add you are not going to get rich . When I first went into business in the late 60s I had this idea that I would be a rich man in short order I have found that the only people that get rich are the ones that are wealthy to begin with and could put the money out to expand and make big money . Most of the people I have known that have done well in the construction business sit in a office and never swung a hammer the man that works with his hands will make a living and with hard work and intelligence can make a good living but not become rich.

Dan

[thor2015 0]

Rodger,

I understood the point you were trying to make. My possession of any copyrighted logos has simply been for personal restoration projects where I have owned the item and the logo was either badly damaged, missing or removed in the process. Also, anytime I undertake any project like that I do look online to see if I can find any licensed replacements for sale. I am aware that just because I can Google and download it does not make it free for me to use anywhere and how I want. I know regarding copyrighted materials that even giving them away for free to others is a violation and until I can talk to a qualified legal consultant on how to ensure I have the proper permission I use extreme discretion.

Dan,

I never had any desire to get rich. I just got tired of trying to bring prototypes to manufacturing companies and being shown the door without any discussion. I'd hear things like the quantity desired was too little without any discussion on what the minimum quantity was. I'd hear that the project wasn't worth their time even though I had never told them what I was willing to pay. I also heard other excuses along the way but those two were the most common. So, I decided to do it myself and cut out the middle man and in the process offer up a place where people could bring their own custom creations and have them done with someone who was willing to take the time to work with them.