Oracal white 651 not sticking

[cervelo 0]

I have had several jobs recently that I have used Oracal 651 white that I cannot get it to stick when applied wet.  I am using the same solution I use, water, dish soap, and rubbing alcohol.  Every other color seems to work fine, but white is killing me...

Any ideas?

thanks,

Rod

[Muttley 0]

Rod,

Lately I have notice "patches" of my Oracal 651 not being as sticky as it should.

Though, I have not had any trouble with it not staying put after squeegee-ing the H377 out of it.

May be an old roll?

[darkdan 3]

Or stop relying on wet application.

[tservice 3]

What type of transfer tape did you use?

[cervelo 0]

Or stop relying on wet application.

I'm to uncoordinated on large pieces to not have it stick and bubble. 

[Benr98 40]

I too would like to know the kind of transfer tape you are using and maybe use a little less fluid?

[BannerJohn 1,324]

Or stop relying on wet application.

I'm to uncoordinated on large pieces to not have it stick and bubble.   

coordination has nothing to do with it. Simply put...wet is the best and easiest way in a lot of cases. People who think that somehow doing wet is less than professional are just full of themselves. I've personally never seen a large dry application by anyone that looked as good as wet. And I've seen plenty.

Doing wet is not 'relying' on anything. It's just another way of doing it.

Anyone who would take a chance at ruining a high dollar job or trashing expensive vinyl just to be able to brag that they always do dry is just not very bright.

I've vtaken many customers away from other shops because of the 'buhbles' they left when doing dry. And there are always a few.

[darkdan 3]

coordination has nothing to do with it. Simply put...wet is the best and easiest way in a lot of cases. People who think that somehow doing wet is less than professional are just full of themselves. I've personally never seen a large dry application by anyone that looked as good as wet. And I've seen plenty.

Doing wet is not 'relying' on anything. It's just another way of doing it.

Anyone who would take a chance at ruining a high dollar job or trashing expensive vinyl just to be able to brag that they always do dry is just not very bright.

I've vtaken many customers away from other shops because of the 'buhbles' they left when doing dry. And there are always a few.

I've seen plenty of wet jobs that didn't turn out right.

I've seen plenty of dry jobs that didn't turn out right.

Maybe if people would learn how to do things instead of relying on crutches and taking some pride in their work and not leaving behind a crappy job I wouldn't have seen those things.

I doubt many people do it dry (or wet) just to brag, but because they can get it done faster and better with less trouble.

And as far as you've never seen anything done dry that looked as good as wet.......think about it for a second.  Can you really say that?  In all your years you've never seen a good dry installed graphic or decal?

I do a few things wet.  Layers.  Or when I have to line something up just right.  But I'm not scared to lay out large pieces (5'x10' has been the largest, not counting vehicle wraps).

It's all about practice, pride, and patience.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

doing wet is not a 'crutch'.  It is just another way of doing it. If you think it is, I feel sorry for you.

Read some of Oracal's product bulletins some time. Wet application is recommended for large applications. IF anyone should know, I guess they should.

"I do a few things wet.  Layers.  Or when I have to line something up just right. "

I don't know about you,but EVERYTHING I do has to be lined up just right.

[Muttley 0]

It really doesn't matter, wet or dry.  What ever you prefer, just do a good job.

What matters is that Rod and I have had some experience with white Oracal 651 not being as "sticky" as it should.

And just so you don't have to ask, I found this when doing it wet or dry, big or small.  The other colors of Oracal 651 that I have seem to be thicker material, and contain more adhesive.

Rod,

Have you tried using product like Rapid Tac's rapid prep or rapid clean before applying the vinyl? 

I ask because I got a sample pack from them, and that stuff sure cleans things up in a hurry.

I have used their product and home brew, and either works great, but I noticed that their cleaners work great for prepping the surface.

[Muttley 0]

Oh, and I use RTape Conform Series 4076-RLA app tape.

Though that is not the issue I am having with the white.

[JoeDirt 5]

I think it sounds like to much soap in the mix I usually free measure and sometimes that happens but if you do measure than I dont know.

[darkdan 3]

doing wet is not a 'crutch'.  It is just another way of doing it. If you think it is, I feel sorry for you.

Read some of Oracal's product bulletins some time. Wet application is recommended for large applications. IF anyone should know, I guess they should.

"I do a few things wet.  Layers.  Or when I have to line something up just right. "

I don't know about you,but EVERYTHING I do has to be lined up just right.

I didn't say it was a crutch.

I said he shouldn't rely on it.  I feel it's vital to be a good installer and know multiple application methods.  If someone has to rely on only doing it one way then it does become a crutch.

I don't know about you, but I'm not perfect.  Like all things in life there is an acceptable margin of error and I do my best.  So if you think everything you do is perfect you have issues.  But I'm smart enough to know when I should use wet application to make it easier.

To me it sounds like you're advocating wet for everything.

And don't give me an argument from authority because the all-mighty manufacturer says to do it wet.  I bet they don't say you HAVE to do it wet.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I don't advocate wet for everything. I do coroplast dry from time to time. I just advocate wet for newbees and part-timers. This forum is not exactly running over with pros. If you keep making the newbees feel like doing wet is somehow less than professional (which you DO) you are going to cause a lot of wasted time and vinyl.

"Maybe if people would learn how to do things instead of relying on crutches"

sure sounds like you called doing wet a crutch to me.

as for Oracal..well if you think that the manufacturer doesn't know the best way to use their product..well I can't finish that sentence.Common sense would apply. And if you read the post, I said they RECOMMEND wet for large applications.

[darkdan 3]

Just because you put something in quotation marks doesn't mean I said it.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

coordination has nothing to do with it. Simply put...wet is the best and easiest way in a lot of cases. People who think that somehow doing wet is less than professional are just full of themselves. I've personally never seen a large dry application by anyone that looked as good as wet. And I've seen plenty.

Doing wet is not 'relying' on anything. It's just another way of doing it.

Anyone who would take a chance at ruining a high dollar job or trashing expensive vinyl just to be able to brag that they always do dry is just not very bright.

I've vtaken many customers away from other shops because of the 'buhbles' they left when doing dry. And there are always a few.

I've seen plenty of wet jobs that didn't turn out right.

I've seen plenty of dry jobs that didn't turn out right.

Maybe if people would learn how to do things instead of relying on crutches and taking some pride in their work and not leaving behind a crappy job I wouldn't have seen those things.

I doubt many people do it dry (or wet) just to brag, but because they can get it done faster and better with less trouble.

And as far as you've never seen anything done dry that looked as good as wet.......think about it for a second.  Can you really say that?  In all your years you've never seen a good dry installed graphic or decal?

I do a few things wet.  Layers.  Or when I have to line something up just right.  But I'm not scared to lay out large pieces (5'x10' has been the largest, not counting vehicle wraps).

It's all about practice, pride, and patience.

how about if I just click on quote and you can see for yourself?

[darkdan 3]

LOL.  I guess I did say it.  You know how stuff comes out in the heat of the moment.

But, IMO, it's only a crutch if that's the only way you can get something done.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I can do dry as well as wet. However,this is how I make my living.(such as it is) It is not a hobby or part-time extra income. I can do wet faster than dry and it turns out perfect every time. If you have the right application fluid mixture (I make my own) and know how to use a squeegee...it goes fast.No worrying about bubbles,etc. I do average 2-4 banners a day...along with a few magnets and maybe even some coroplast. I don't have time to punch bubbles or do it over. Speed+ quality matters in my business. Time is money. So I ask myself..'why take chances?'.

Some years ago I went to work for a guy and he asked me 'If you could do something the hard way or the easy way,which would you chose?' I said the easy way. That is what got me the job. He told me only a fool makes things harder on himself.

Over 1000 banners in the last 2 years and not a single complaint.

[Rodger 527]

Hey John , sometimes ... logic is futile ( " 7 of 9 voice " )

[darkdan 3]

That's not relying on it.  That's doing what's best for you.

Now if you could ONLY do it wet, and then ran into problems while doing it wet, but lacked the skills to do anything else about........then it's relying on a crutch.

I can do things faster dry.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.  But anyone that can apply dry has the skill set to do a wet application, but not the other way around.

[cervelo 0]

It really doesn't matter, wet or dry.  What ever you prefer, just do a good job.

What matters is that Rod and I have had some experience with white Oracal 651 not being as "sticky" as it should.

And just so you don't have to ask, I found this when doing it wet or dry, big or small.  The other colors of Oracal 651 that I have seem to be thicker material, and contain more adhesive.

Rod,

Have you tried using product like Rapid Tac's rapid prep or rapid clean before applying the vinyl? 

I ask because I got a sample pack from them, and that stuff sure cleans things up in a hurry.

I have used their product and home brew, and either works great, but I noticed that their cleaners work great for prepping the surface.

Whew....  You don't check in for a few days and threads gain a life of their own...

I have rtape clear.  It doesn't  say anything else.  I think it is low-tack, but I bought it awhile back.

This is something that I had not planned on doing for more than my own enjoyment, but when my employer cut back, ie let me go, I needed to generate a little income.  So far this has been limited to friends that have needed decals.  I do not feel confident enough with my application skills, and DO NOT want to have to supply more vinyl at my cost.

I have not had any problems with other colors and my mix, which I made myself.

I need to try something dry with white and see what happens.

Thanks for all the responses.

Rod