a Kart forum's rule

[Rodger 527]

I recently signed up to the Woodbridge Kart club forum . They require members to use 1rst & last real names for the user name . I wonder if that helps keep things more civil ? Anybody know of any other forums that require that ?

[wasatchcars 0]

How would you make someone prove its there real name?

[mr300s 1,272]

How would you make someone prove its there real name?

you have to submit to a lie detector test along with the name

[wasatchcars 0]

I was thinking DNA test

But no way im providing my DNA

I don't need 1/2 the forum calling me Dad and asking for there allowance.

[NukleoN 34]

Real first and last name? I suppose people can find this out without too much trouble but it seems overkill for a forum to require it. I mean it's not like they need high security clearance or 'real ID' for a simple Kart forum.

I think it's misguided to think real names will make people nicer on the Internet.....and it's not always about being 'nice'. Some people are 'nice' to those of like mind, but are otherwise stupid, unreasonable, irrational, biased, racist, xenophobic, power hungry, anti-intellectual, group-thinkers, etc. and there will be personality clashes no matter how much a forum attempts to give the illusion of civility, especially on a large forum with wildly different beliefs, cultures, expectations, etc. Even values regarding the written word can get users banned from unreasonable governments who want to protect delicate users from overt displays of 'arrogant' intelligence.

In my view, forums should let people air out their grievances in a reasonable manner and not interfere. Simply hiding conflict behind deleted threads solves nothing. The conflict remains and nothing gets solved. When people make ridiculous claims that are opposed vigorously, that needs to be left unmolested by admins so other users can see that skeptical inquiry is alive and well, and this helps keep people 'civil' if they know their ideas are not 'protected' by admins by way of avoiding any hint of 'argumentation'.

The reason we enjoy such modernity in the forum of science today is a direct result of clashing ideas, and sorting through variant claims through the critical review endemic to the scientific method. It's almost always a mistake for a forum to engage in any kind of censorship (aside from perhaps cursing or spam), since forums are mini-governments. If censorship fails in real life, it will almost certainly fail in a forum where it's all too easy to delete an account and simply start a competing forum or join another.

Real names don't matter...but the real exchange of honest opinions unmolested by heavy-handed censorship does matter. As it is now, I've already seen this site factionalized by censorship and other disputes, and that censorship seems unabated, but I am optimistic that the admins here are capable of learning from their mistakes. In one thread, *every single one of my posts* was deleted. Another thread was deleted where I put effort into my responses. This censorship needs to stop. If we're not free to be 'who we really are' then real names miss the point entirely, and the forum can't handle having users who are honest about their views and unafraid to express them.

I realize that USC is not proposing this real-name thing, but there's something to be learned from every mistake forums make in these little government experiments on the Internet. Forums are almost entirely about communication, and I think it's important to keep free-exchange free, even when it's controversial.

[Rodger 527]

" How would you make someone prove its there real name? "

I don't know , I am not suggesting doing this ... it was the 1rst time I have ever seen that & wondered if others have ran into it .

Hey NukleoN , I enjoy reading most of your posts ( the longer 1's that take shots aimed at a select few even though answering the thread gets old )  & ponder your perspectives . Consider this ... everybody has opinions , but you list opinions that differ from yours as mistakes many times ( Nuk posts " I realize that USC is not proposing this real-name thing, but there's something to be learned from every mistake forums make in these little government experiments on the Internet. Forums are almost entirely about communication, and I think it's important to keep free-exchange free, even when it's controversial. " ) . Just because you don't agree with how the forum is ran , does not make it a mistake , just how the administration wants it .

I agree about a forum being like a government & think that is the greatest  . Everyone is free to have their own forum & make their own rules . USCutter has their rules . Members can leave 1 forum & try others , be a member on many forums or comply within the forum's rules . Every forum has rules/laws as do governments . Follow them & no problem .. don't & some form of authority is shown . Sometimes it is a mild censorship , sometimes a banning . I think topics should stay away from violatable subjects .. those subjects have forum dedicated to them ( politics & religion are the most violatable topics ) . Threads that get out of hand should be removed . This forum is dedicated to USCutter's customers that want help using USCutter products . USCutter does take suggestions , but constantly trying to get them enacted becomes problematic & seems to go personal . This has happened many times before .

Nuk posts " If censorship fails in real life, it will almost certainly fail in a forum where it's all too easy to delete an account and simply start a competing forum or join another.

Real names don't matter...but the real exchange of honest opinions unmolested by heavy-handed censorship does matter. As it is now, I've already seen this site factionalized by censorship and other disputes, and that censorship seems unabated, but I am optimistic that the admins here are capable of learning from their mistakes. "

I don't think censorship fails in real life . What a mess it would be if everybody was let do whatever they wanted !!! I am glad the Mods , Administrators & the Owner here don't let everybody do as they please here & again , not letting that happen is not a mistake in my eyes .

[windasm 0]

I think blizzard is going to start making people use thier real name on thier wow gaming forums. Lot of people are really mad about it. Blizzard has everybodies real name too because you have to use a credit card to play wow.

That's one game I'm glad I have stayed away from myself. I think it will make it easier for people to hack accounts myself.

[NukleoN 34]

I don't think censorship fails in real life . What a mess it would be if everybody was let do whatever they wanted !!! I am glad the Mods , Administrators & the Owner here don't let everybody do as they please here & again , not letting that happen is not a mistake in my eyes .

You know, two of the chief motivators for the American revolution were taxation without representation, and the lack of religious freedom (and the understanding that there is no freedom *of* religion without freedom *from* it).

Whether one thinks censorship works or not, history proves that ultimately, it fails. Whole countries started out of the resistance to censorship or the oppression of the minority from the majority.

The sacking of great library at Alexandria helped usher in the Dark Ages. Hitler burned books before he started burning people. When information is suppressed, governments (forums) often spiral into corruption.

The scientific method has always been controversial, but it's the best method we have for discerning truth-claims. That said, I personally err toward less/no censorship while knowing that some people will be offended by valid content and opinions, whereas some governments (forums) attempt to please the majority while suppressing the minority...who go and start competing forums (or countries).

It just so happens that America's Democratic Republic is also set up to protect the minority *from* the majority, and I believe this should be a central tenet of forum governments as well. I think it behooves any admin to understand history and which social experiments have already failed...and avoid them like the plague.

That said, there is little to gain from censorship and a lot to lose. There is a lot to gain from free-speech (information, people working out their own issues) and little to lose. I would also argue that less censorship is more ethical than more censorship, but free speech always comes at a price...some people *will* be offended, but that's historically been true even for such mundane experiments as powered flight or something so fundamentally accepted as civil rights.

If the majority had their way through history, we'd be a lot worse off, with a less ethical government and freedom of speech would only work if it met with the mob-rule of the majority. Most of us understand the scientists or other progressives throughout history who were castigated, oppressed, suppressed or outright lynched due to their unpopular (but no less correct) ideas.

Censorship fails as a general rule, but there is a time and place for decorum. For forums, the 'off topic' section should be akin to the public square and should be left alone by the moderators. Threads concerning important and relevant information should be like a courtroom, a workplace, or another location which requires some decorum in the interest of avoiding distractions.  I may be annoyed by opinions I find misguided, unethical, immoral, etc., but few things annoy people more than outright censorship.

I don't need moderators to patrol my feelings about an issue which might incite them personally, but  I do need them to patrol for relevant content, properly-spelled thread titles and making sure everything is in its proper place. Beyond that I say, 'Don't Tread on Me'.

[Rodger 527]

Hmmm , not being combative or personal , but seems another perspective ( mine ) could be that you are constantly guilty of attempted censorship ... it is defined as

"  Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor."

  With your constant quest to correct thread title spelling , general spelling & proving your point to the point of conflict instead of agreeing to disagree etc , that seems like censorship to what is " right " or " correct " now . As you have said many things have evolved from what is considered " right " or " correct " so let everybody express themselves however they want . If it bothers you that much to see " your " vs " you're " or other incorrect spelling used ,  don't read it just glide over it . The misspelling does not bother many IF anybody else . Seems much of the friction you get is the obsession you have to correct others thread titles/posts . I understand that to a point , but you have driven it home until you have gotten negative feedback . The religion issue is not far behind .

A forum is a purpose based instrument . There are forums of every type imaginable , so getting deep into politics , religion , spelling , grammar or tic-tac-toes should be done in that appropriate forum , not in a Vinyl cutter forum . It is not censorship to keep things as intended by the owner of the forum , it is the rules . Governments have rules , break them & some sort of action is taken . Same in a forum .

All the points have been driven home . constantly bringing up the same issues from any possible tangent is not good . This time all I asked is if anybody else had seen a forum that required real names used as user names & you made it a point to get into the deleted threads issue that got several other threads removed . That can't be taken as anything other than prodding the Mods ( 4th overall reply & your 1rst in this thread & most if not all the sensitive subjects get brought up ) . Everybody that has done that before isn't around anymore . I would like for you to leave the sore subjects alone & continue to interact & support this forum . Pushing things until there is a blowup resulting in you leaving or getting baned is not good for anybody . I try to be super self-conscience , I think you may also & will take my viewpoints as sincere . At any rate I am done talking about anything other than real name use as a user name in this thread 

[NukleoN 34]

Hmmm , not being combative or personal , but seems another perspective ( mine ) could be that you are constantly guilty of attempted censorship ... it is defined as

"  Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor."

 With your constant quest to correct thread title spelling , general spelling & proving your point to the point of conflict instead of agreeing to disagree etc , that seems like censorship to what is " right " or " correct " now . As you have said many things have evolved from what is considered " right " or " correct " so let everybody express themselves however they want . If it bothers you that much to see " your " vs " you're " or other incorrect spelling used ,  don't read it just glide over it . The misspelling does not bother many IF anybody else . Seems much of the friction you get is the obsession you have to correct others thread titles/posts . I understand that to a point , but you have driven it home until you have gotten negative feedback . The religion issue is not far behind .

A forum is a purpose based instrument . There are forums of every type imaginable , so getting deep into politics , religion , spelling , grammar or tic-tac-toes should be done in that appropriate forum , not in a Vinyl cutter forum . It is not censorship to keep things as intended by the owner of the forum , it is the rules . Governments have rules , break them & some sort of action is taken . Same in a forum .

All the points have been driven home . constantly bringing up the same issues from any possible tangent is not good . This time all I asked is if anybody else had seen a forum that required real names used as user names & you made it a point to get into the deleted threads issue that got several other threads removed . That can't be taken as anything other than prodding the Mods ( 4th overall reply & your 1rst in this thread & most if not all the sensitive subjects get brought up ) . Everybody that has done that before isn't around anymore . I would like for you to leave the sore subjects alone & continue to interact & support this forum . Pushing things until there is a blowup resulting in you leaving or getting baned is not good for anybody . I try to be super self-conscience , I think you may also & will take my viewpoints as sincere . At any rate I am done talking about anything other than real name use as a user name in this thread  

A forum is a way to communicate. You guys can run it how you want, but I simply think a *communication* forum for people who often sell words should have moderators with the highest standards for clarity of communication in thread titles. You may disagree, but it's just my point of view. I am not twisting anyone's arm, and you guys are free to ignore me. Just like I might glide over some awful spelling, the mods can simply ignore my suggestion for editing standards in thread titles. Banning me for these suggestions would simply make you guilty of censorship in a dramatic and noticeable fashion. Just like it doesn't hurt me to witness some horrific spelling, it doesn't hurt anyone for me to ask the mods to fix it.

Let's not forget, this forum has already been factionalized due to signature censorship and other reasons, so let's not minimize the importance of making your members happy. Without members, you have no forum, or you have a factionalized forum where members spend most of their time somewhere else, potentially. Some people have indicated right in their signatures that they've *left* USC for the most part. This is not about me....this is about how moderators handle dissent and ideas from their constituency.

I also need to clarify that I can't possibly 'push' anyone...I have no control over this site at all. I merely have ideas, good ideas which I can back up with logic. You guys make the rules....but it's good to remember that simply having control doesn't mean those in control are right or correct, and when you hint at banning valid objections, it simply feeds into the reason why people left in the first place, and ironically reinforces the validity of the criticism.

Also, one man's sensitive topic is not a big deal for another. 'Sensitive' topics are subjective, of course. Some people have ideas I find wildly offensive, but I don't think they should be censored or banned any more than I should be banned for expressing my opinion. I find censorship *way* more offensive than honest opinions from members of varying backgrounds, regardless of what they're talking about and even if I disagree.

I don't want to belabor it. Just ignore me if you don't like my ideas....or as you stated explicitly, acknowledge the ideas and express your unwillingness to put them into practice. That's fine, because at least I know you're listening. Being ignored simply makes me repeat myself because I think nobody's listening. To your and USC's credit, I know the mods are listening and several have contacted me, so I feel pretty good about that.

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

Hmmm , not being combative or personal , but seems another perspective ( mine ) could be that you are constantly guilty of attempted censorship ... it is defined as

"  Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor."

  With your constant quest to correct thread title spelling , general spelling & proving your point to the point of conflict instead of agreeing to disagree etc , that seems like censorship to what is " right " or " correct " now . As you have said many things have evolved from what is considered " right " or " correct " so let everybody express themselves however they want . If it bothers you that much to see " your " vs " you're " or other incorrect spelling used ,  don't read it just glide over it . The misspelling does not bother many IF anybody else . Seems much of the friction you get is the obsession you have to correct others thread titles/posts . I understand that to a point , but you have driven it home until you have gotten negative feedback . The religion issue is not far behind .

A forum is a purpose based instrument . There are forums of every type imaginable , so getting deep into politics , religion , spelling , grammar or tic-tac-toes should be done in that appropriate forum , not in a Vinyl cutter forum . It is not censorship to keep things as intended by the owner of the forum , it is the rules . Governments have rules , break them & some sort of action is taken . Same in a forum .

All the points have been driven home . constantly bringing up the same issues from any possible tangent is not good . This time all I asked is if anybody else had seen a forum that required real names used as user names & you made it a point to get into the deleted threads issue that got several other threads removed . That can't be taken as anything other than prodding the Mods ( 4th overall reply & your 1rst in this thread & most if not all the sensitive subjects get brought up ) . Everybody that has done that before isn't around anymore . I would like for you to leave the sore subjects alone & continue to interact & support this forum . Pushing things until there is a blowup resulting in you leaving or getting baned is not good for anybody . I try to be super self-conscience , I think you may also & will take my viewpoints as sincere . At any rate I am done talking about anything other than real name use as a user name in this thread 

;)

[Rodger 527]

Anyway , I registered using my real 1rst name .. Rodger Myers 

[wwpro 1]

I'd put my name, address and SSN before reading through all this thread  ;)

[NukleoN 34]

I'd put my name, address and SSN before reading through all this thread 

If you think that's bad, never, ever try to read my blogs. They're huge.

[JoeBlow 5]

Hmmm , not being combative or personal , but seems another perspective ( mine ) could be that you are constantly guilty of attempted censorship ... it is defined as

"  Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor."

  With your constant quest to correct thread title spelling , general spelling & proving your point to the point of conflict instead of agreeing to disagree etc , that seems like censorship to what is " right " or " correct " now . As you have said many things have evolved from what is considered " right " or " correct " so let everybody express themselves however they want . If it bothers you that much to see " your " vs " you're " or other incorrect spelling used ,  don't read it just glide over it . The misspelling does not bother many IF anybody else . Seems much of the friction you get is the obsession you have to correct others thread titles/posts . I understand that to a point , but you have driven it home until you have gotten negative feedback . The religion issue is not far behind .

A forum is a purpose based instrument . There are forums of every type imaginable , so getting deep into politics , religion , spelling , grammar or tic-tac-toes should be done in that appropriate forum , not in a Vinyl cutter forum . It is not censorship to keep things as intended by the owner of the forum , it is the rules . Governments have rules , break them & some sort of action is taken . Same in a forum .

All the points have been driven home . constantly bringing up the same issues from any possible tangent is not good . This time all I asked is if anybody else had seen a forum that required real names used as user names & you made it a point to get into the deleted threads issue that got several other threads removed . That can't be taken as anything other than prodding the Mods ( 4th overall reply & your 1rst in this thread & most if not all the sensitive subjects get brought up ) . Everybody that has done that before isn't around anymore . I would like for you to leave the sore subjects alone & continue to interact & support this forum . Pushing things until there is a blowup resulting in you leaving or getting baned is not good for anybody . I try to be super self-conscience , I think you may also & will take my viewpoints as sincere . At any rate I am done talking about anything other than real name use as a user name in this thread 

[NukleoN 34]

Actually, 'following the intent' of the owner has nothing to do with censorship or what is correct. Pre-1776 England had a mandated church state, but our founding fathers understood this as a lack of freedom of (and from) religion and thus, America had the first secular Constitution in the world (the Declaration made references to a Deistic notion of a god). England was also employing unfair taxation without representation. This was in keeping with English laws, but had nothing to do with fairness. This was another strong motivator for the founding fathers to start their own government which ironically, U.S. Cutters is named after.

America became a new experiment in government run by the people and for the people. Rules are well and good, but sometimes those rules are oppressive or tyrannical. When you speak of 'controversial' subjects, all you're doing is trying to protect the majority at the expense of the minority (suppressing unpopular speech), and essentially it becomes unfair. Simply having an opinion shouldn't be offensive (even if some disagree) and the forum rules should protect unpopular speech and let the facts shape the conversation.

'Rules' are only as good as the wisdom of the person making them, and it's very easy to get it wrong, and hard to get it right. This is generally why there are checks and balances in government. If your 'leader' has full control but isn't the most fair-minded, you will have issues. You need other minds in power to check the leader and make suire there's peer-review when it comes to 'lawmaking'. This is precisely all the more reason to *listen* when your members (which you need) speak up in protest. If your response to valid dissent is only to enforce 'rules', you're running a tyrannical dictatorship and you should expect an unending stream of dissent along with people going elsewhere or getting banned.

Banning real members who are genuinely participating but with valid complaints/dissent is an outright failure for any forum, and doesn't address the validity of that person's complaint. If men will go to war to attain fairness, then leaving or starting a competing forum is easy. Let history be your guide....it's already seen a lot of failed 'governments' which can easily apply to Internet governments (such as forums), especially with regard to free-speech.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Rodger 527]

Anyway , I registered using my real 1rst name .. Rodger Myers 

I am going to censor this post of mine .. It was incorrect  !!! I should have said " I registered using my real !rst & last name ... Rodger Myers  .