651 Not Sticking

[Muttley 0]

All right, this may turn into more of a rant than anything else, but here goes.

I did a lettering job for my local Taekwondo school.  It was inside, on the wall above the mirrors.

Basic test measuring 16" high (big, long wall!). 

The wall has a light texture and a few coats of semigloss paint.

Because they do allot of exercise in the same room, and the wall was textured, I used Oracal 651.

I wanted a stronger tack than the 631.

I cleaned the wall with an alcohol based cleaner, squeegeed the decal to the wall and used the tennis ball trick to work the vinyl down into the small crevasses.

Here is the issue.

Now it is 6 weeks later, and some of the lettering is beginning to "peel" away from the wall.

I have been asked to go back and fix this decal.

I explained to the customer that there may be an issue before installation, but did not put anything in writing on the invoices, (I know, dumb-a$$ me!).

I have no issue going back over the decal again with the tennis ball/squeegee, but I am not going to re-cut the entire thing.

Here is my questions for all of you.

Should I have used something else in this situation?

Is there something that I can use to remedy this issue?

What are your opinions on this?

I will be going out and inspecting the issue in the next 2-3 days.  I will take some pictures for reference if any one is interested.

I will also update you all on any other issues that arise, and my solution (if any?) to this situation.

Thanks for reading.

Muttley

[hamlettsigns 0]

I installed some wall graphics for a Franchise that were 3M but they recommend if any areas started peeling (just small areas or edge cure) to use brush some white elmers glue behind the vinyl.

Also did you heat the vinyl any after it was installed?

If  the paint is peeling from the drywall it will probably all come down eventually.

[cohesion 0]

what's the tennis ball trick?

[Guest fivestar]

Tennis ball on rivets works real well.  Take a heat gun for about 1-2 seconds to vinyl on rivet then apply tennis to the vinyl and it will wrap the vinyl right around rivet.  I don't know what it is for wall graphics though.

[Cre8tiveCutter 7]

I have always been told to use 631 on walls and that is what I have used. I have used it paneling, on painted paneling, dry wall with all kinds of different types of paint and I am using it in my shop on my concrete walls that are textured and painted...nothing is peeling anywhere. Some of it has been there for 3 months and some has been there for 2 weeks. It was a real PIA to get on the textured walls but its there and staying.

In short, I dont know what to tell you as far as the 651 is concerned, maybe try and see if you can get it to stick back or maybe redo the ones that are peeling in 631? I would try and fix this somehow because if he paid you good money your kind of obligated, and # 2 most importantly, you dont want something that is going to look crappy in another month hanging in there so he can say "dont use this guy look what he did to me"! You want happy customers!

I dont know how big this room is but is it really humid in there? that may make a difference and it may do that too any vinyl that is applied. Maybe try and experiment with a small piece of 631 vinyl and some other kind and see how well it holds up. Because if they dont hold up then you will not have redone a job that is going to peel off the wall no matter what you do! Kinda like a SWATCH test!

Let us know how it turns out!

Renee

[kenimes 42]

Not sure that the adhesive on the 651 is designed for indoor use, such as the adhesive on the 631 made specifically for indoor use.

[Muttley 0]

Update for you all.

After inspecting the decals, I found that it was not adhering to the painted wall.

All of the areas that I had "forced" into the textures wall had come up, and it would have only been a matter of a few more days before the vinyl fell right off the wall.

The adhesive was still in good shape, but each letter was easily pealed off of the paint.  I could have reapplied the decals to a mirror or glass and would have been comfortable with the application.  There was no sign that the decals were peeling due to moisture, grease, oils or any other contaminates.

I was puzzled by this, and suggest a sample of 631 be used to test the paint.

I thoroughly cleaned the test area with and alcohol based cleaner, followed by Rapid Tac II.  I dried the area and applied the vinyl "dry", forcing the 631 down into any/all crevasses.

Now 2 days later, the sample of 631 is showing signs of the same issue.  It is lifting from the paint.

On a side note, I spoke with an instructor from a different school, using the same type of paint (not sure if it is an exact match) who had the vary same issue.  This other school had ordered vinyl decals from another supplier (competition!) and they could not get them to stay on the paint as well.  There solution was to apply the vinyl to a clear acrylic and mount the acrylic to the wall.

I have researched this as much as time has allowed.

Oracal states:

"Surfaces to which the material will be applied must be cleaned thoroughly of dust, grease or any contaminants.

Freshly lacquered or painted surfaces should be allowed to stand for at least three weeks after complete curing.

The compatibility of selected lacquers and paints should be tested by the end-user prior to use."

The painted walls that I was applying to, as well as the other school had been painted longer than tree weeks prior to installation. 

My only conclusion is that it is an incompatibility between the vinyl and paint.

To solve the issue and keep the customer happy, I am extending a "discount" on their next purchase. 

I am bidding a dimensional foam lettering application in place of the vinyl. 

I am also going to try and get a sample of the paint used in the school, and test at home with various applications.

This is all I have.  I am open to an other suggestions that you may have!

Mutttley

[hamlettsigns 0]

I forgot to mention on my earlier post that if the paint is latex the decal will not stick to the paint.

[JoeBlow 5]

I don't know the answer your problem, but can only suggest trying some spray adhesive on the paint surface, and try too get the vinyl stick to that.  I heard of similar problems due to vinyl applied to walls in cold temperatures.

[Pappy 0]

ok....  seen this before.  I build bird houses.  Nice big ones with decals, lettering, graphics,....  Been building them for about 15 years,,,, long before vinyl lettering was even in my vocabulary.  I would have problems with stickers not staying stuck.  Especially to various kinds of paint.  They would look good on the house,  let it sit outside for a few days and they would come unstuck.

Here is my solution:  take it for what its worth.....

My dad turned me onto this glue... You may have seen it in craft shops or walmart.  Its called tacky glue.

Apply it to whatever you want the letters to stick to, I use a set of spatulas (sp) that I bought from harbor freight.

Let it sit for about 5 minutes....  Then stick your letter to it.  You can still move them around until you get the right

position.  When done, just let dry.  It will dry clear and strong.  I've glued bird houses together with this stuff.

Its cheap, spreads well, cleans up nicely, and you don't have to worry about anything coming down until you are ready for

it to come down.

Just my "tacky" advice.....

Pappy

[cohesion 0]

I have some 631 applied in my bathroom on the wall next to the tub. The wall is slightly textured and it gets pretty humid in there. It's been up for about two months now... no issues with peeling. Maybe try what Joe said and use some spray adhesive.

[sandman 5]

Wonder if it is an oil base paint that keeps leaching oil or something? The paint should dry and cure so you can clean it and stick to it no matter what base it is though.

[hamlettsigns 0]

Oil based semi gloss is the best interior paint to stick vinyl to. Most problem happen with latex but not all the time.