The Big 3 Bailout and You..

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

Okay on to the next topic, Tell me what you think?

    I have been watching the news faithfully, and I am having trouble swallowing the fact that all the execs for the big three auto makers fly to DC in their private jets and then sit down with their hands out for 25 billion. Should not these, educated men have seen some sort of economic fallout coming months ago with the gas prices? now they sit back knowing they can file bankruptcy and reorganize and pay their workers less than 1/2 of what they were making, and because of the economy these people will continue to work for them so they can feed their families. My message statement to congress, I was laid off about 7 months ago, lost my home in forclosure cause then bank didn't want to try to help " Reorganize", moved my family into an apartment and am trying to get a new start, but because my credit is officially SHOT, i can't get a business loan for nothing ! if congress wants to give me 5 thousand ( much less than 25 billion ) i will hitchhike to dc to pick up the check,lol. What do we as a people have to do for survival, any thoughts ?

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I don't agree with the bailout in principal...but reality is reality. There are factories all over the country that produce parts for the Big 3. If the Big 3 close, most likely so will they. Estimate just in Tennessee alone,over 10,000 jobs lost.And that's just directly. It will trickle down to everyone... people lose jobs,they don't spend as much. Small businesses go under because of it. There are two just near me that are already going out because of the economy.

If you trace it all down....the government sat back and let the banks,etc do as they pleased with little regulation until we are in the mess we are in now. Detroit sat back 30 years ago producing crappy cars and let Japan take over their market.

Bottom line...you think it's bad now? The big 3 go under and the great depression is just a walk in the park compared to what will happen. back then,people didn't live on  credit...people knew how to make a garden,to at least feed themselves...Today this country is literally on the edge of a total economic colapse.

These days people rob, steal,and kill for drugs. Imagine what it will be like when they have to do it for FOOD.

Bail em out,but make em pay! That's my 2p worth.

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

I agree, this is a razors edge if ever there was one

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I wonder how hard it is to learn Chinese?

[kenimes 42]

The Colbert Report was pretty good last night....

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

Chinese are hurting as well, they are looking to the government for a huge economic bailout, this is global and not good for any nationality

[BannerJohn 1,324]

yeah but who do you think we are borrowing all the money from? China.

[Jay2703 704]

I don't agree with the bailout in principal...but reality is reality. There are factories all over the country that produce parts for the Big 3. If the Big 3 close, most likely so will they. Estimate just in Tennessee alone,over 10,000 jobs lost.And that's just directly. It will trickle down to everyone... people lose jobs,they don't spend as much. Small businesses go under because of it. There are two just near me that are already going out because of the economy.

If you trace it all down....the government sat back and let the banks,etc do as they pleased with little regulation until we are in the mess we are in now. Detroit sat back 30 years ago producing crappy cars and let Japan take over their market.

Bottom line...you think it's bad now? The big 3 go under and the great depression is just a walk in the park compared to what will happen. back then,people didn't live on  credit...people knew how to make a garden,to at least feed themselves...Today this country is literally on the edge of a total economic colapse.

These days people rob, steal,and kill for drugs. Imagine what it will be like when they have to do it for FOOD.

Bail em out,but make em pay! That's my 2p worth.

John, if we bail these guys out what is going to happen? There are cars that are already built that the automakers can't sell. Parking lots full of them. Are the big three going to continue to build cars that nobody can/will buy. I hate to say it but we currently have more supply and capacity than we have demand. I don't see how all three will survive. I don't think the bailout will work any more than the 700b we are already throwing out there. Some things just need to run their course to right the economy.

[omega_signs 0]

I don't agree with the bailout in principal...but reality is reality. There are factories all over the country that produce parts for the Big 3. If the Big 3 close, most likely so will they. Estimate just in Tennessee alone,over 10,000 jobs lost.And that's just directly. It will trickle down to everyone... people lose jobs,they don't spend as much. Small businesses go under because of it. There are two just near me that are already going out because of the economy.

If you trace it all down....the government sat back and let the banks,etc do as they pleased with little regulation until we are in the mess we are in now. Detroit sat back 30 years ago producing crappy cars and let Japan take over their market.

Bottom line...you think it's bad now? The big 3 go under and the great depression is just a walk in the park compared to what will happen. back then,people didn't live on  credit...people knew how to make a garden,to at least feed themselves...Today this country is literally on the edge of a total economic colapse.

These days people rob, steal,and kill for drugs. Imagine what it will be like when they have to do it for FOOD.

Bail em out,but make em pay! That's my 2p worth.

John, if we bail these guys out what is going to happen? There are cars that are already built that the automakers can't sell. Parking lots full of them. Are the big three going to continue to build cars that nobody can/will buy. I hate to say it but we currently have more supply and capacity than we have demand. I don't see how all three will survive. I don't think the bailout will work any more than the 700b we are already throwing out there. Some things just need to run their course to right the economy.

Very well said, this topic gives alot to think about, it is scary really.

I will be keeping an eye on this thread.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

the last esitimate I read was 2 million jobs lost across the country if we DON'T. Like I said, I don't much like it either...but sometimes you gotta do what needs to be done. Ask someone who is 80+ what the great depression was like.

[Guest fivestar]

I normally keep my nose out of threads like this, but I believe they need to go bankrupt.  They won't go out of business they will re-organize and become profitable companies if/when they do this.  They are way over bloated and haven't turned a profits for how many quarters now.

Anyways, if we bail them out then who's next?  Hell I could use some extra $$$$ myself.

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

Honestly, i think that a lot of this also stems from the war in Iraq, we go over there ( 4 whatever reason :thumbsup:, add your own joke here) blow everything all to hell, then send billions over there to rebuild and fix it, pardon my english but WTF ! , I am 100% for the soldiers and troops who protect us and keep us free. but even the soldiers gotta be tired of fighting a war with no rhyme or reason. Guess my logic is a messed up ?

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I could care less about GM,Ford,etc. You have to look at the big picture and how it will affect the economy in general. There are 2 types of bankruptcy...they are not talking about chapter 13 here...they are talking about closing down.

In 1929,my Grandfather owned two grocery stores,2 homes,2 rental houses, and several parcels of commercial property. He had no money in the stock market. But within 1 year of the crash, he had lost everything and was supporting a wife and 4 kids on $18 a month pension from the Spanish American war. THis is what I am talking about...it all trickles down...to the very bottom of the chain.

How many of you out there could still make your house payment if you lost your job? If the orders stopped coming in? Do you have the skills to grow your own food...to can it for winter? What would happen to you if you couldn't make your credit card payments?Your car payment?

Every economist I have heard has said that if the Big 3 go, it will be absolute devastation to our economy.

700 billion bailout to banks who are in trouble because of their own foolishness..and a lousy $25 billion to save the economy seems like a good deal to me.

Personally, I like having a place to live,food to eat,and money in the bank. Like I said, you can't just look at The Big 3...this is much more than that. Right now, if GM,Ford,etc folded, there would be over 5000 jobs lost in my own area. It would ruin the economy here.Period. Most of what goes into those cars is made by smaller factories all over the country.Seatbelts, floor matts...nuts,bolts, clips, hoses,almost everything.

Like Primal said,though...the 100 billion a year being pissed away in Iraq would be a good place to start saving money.

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

I agree Banner, when the gas crisis started, I got laid off, we lost our home ( which I built) to forclosure, and had to basically start all over again. I pride myself, in being a sportsman, i hunt and fish and always have meat in the freezer, it helps alot compared to the prices of domestic meats and goods from the store, its crazy, but if the government would just invest in the little guys like us so we can get our businesses off the ground and try to build good credit, it would help. This is just the beginning i fear of a much loner and long term problem.

[Jay2703 704]

Honestly, i think that a lot of this also stems from the war in Iraq, we go over there ( 4 whatever reason :thumbsup:, add your own joke here) blow everything all to hell, then send billions over there to rebuild and fix it, pardon my english but WTF ! , I am 100% for the soldiers and troops who protect us and keep us free. but even the soldiers gotta be tired of fighting a war with no rhyme or reason. Guess my logic is a messed up ?

I don't think it was the war. I think it was the banks. They started giving home loans to anyone. They knew there were risks involved but the money looked good and the economy was strong. When the fuel prices started to rise and the economy started to turn down. That is when people started losing their jobs and losing thier houses.  Then people got scared as the banks started to fail. People started pulling money out of the markets and then more jobs are lost and more loans are defaulted on. It starts a cycle. Until people have confidence in businesses they are not going to put thier money back in the markets. When companies like GM and Ford are flying in on thier private jets asking for billions of dollars with no plan on how to use it. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence in me. I agree with Five. If we keep bailing companies out they will start expecting it. CEO's need to start being accountable for thier actions. 

[haumana 1,221]

Keep it going guys ... this is how I keep up with some of the current news ... except this has a "real person's" point of view.

[tory 0]

Banner John has it right for sure. It is more than scary, it is terrifying as to what will happen if these companies go down. It will directly effect 3 million people across the US.....Might as well pull the plug on Michigan. There are cars sitting on lots because people can't get approved for loans. I've bought American made cars, GM specifically, my whole life. Living in the Motor City it was drilled into me. You have to ask yourself without the US made cars what will happen to car prices? They are not made poorly, no more than the foreign made are. I for one pray that something positive comes out of this 25 billion LOAN not bailout as the financial institutions were and STILL aren't helping with loans and such. GM has made so many cutbacks these last few years that they don't even have the manpower to cover the positions. They keep laying off and overburdening current workers. They cut benefits, no raises to keep up with inflation, etc. My husband is in development for the last 25 yrs and has worked his a$$ off for this company. He will soon be 50 and where will he go if this company goes under. Just because a few CEOs making a ridiculous amount of money make it look bad for the lil guys working doesn't mean they don't deserve a loan to get them through what wall street put into motion. You are kidding yourselves if you don't think allowing the car companies to go under won't pull everyone else with them. All the way down to the restaurant owners who will lose business from those that frequent their business for lunch. I do can from my garden and husband hunts......but that isn't going to do a bit of good if I can't make my mortgage. This is a mess, one that I never thought I'd see in the US in my lifetime.

[Jay2703 704]

What is the number of people affected if we do provide the $30b? With cars not selling it's like handing a coffee can to the captain of the Titanic. Just not gonna do much good. At the rate the Big 3  are losing money that $30b would be gone by the middle of next year. Then what, more money?

[rjfox 0]

First let me start with the fact that it has always made me sick that CEO's can make so much, even if the company is doing bad.  I was always told that a bonus is something you earn because you did something extraordinary; not something that is expected even if my decisions have caused 20,000 in job losses.

Now on to another point.  There are many factors that go into the economy, and we cannot put the blame on one area.  But one thing I think we need to realize is that we as citizens are alos to blame.  And not just in the respect that we elect the people that allowed this to happen.  But in the fact that we have become a credit society.  We allowed ourselves to be prayed upon by dirty and greedy lenders. 

I have no problem with people using credit to buy cars, homes, or big screens.  But if you have 10,000 in credit debt, and you purchase that new 50" tv, you are just hurting yourselves.

I also understand that losing your job can be horrible and devastating, especially when many of these job losses have been caused by poor management.  My father works for a supplier of the big 3.  He was told last week that when next week rolls around, they have no projects lined up, and if they dont find work, they dont need workers. 

One last note. As much as I would love to see the gov. help the big 3, I think in the current state they need to make many adjustments.  I watched cspan as the head of ford said he would not give up his 9 million salary even though they are asking for billions in aid...  Just typing that has made me smac my forehead.

[Guest TracMatt]

And if they could just see how selfish they are not giving up some for the company.  My husband works in the automotive industry.  They are already laid off 250 people at his shop alone.  You have to remember it isn't just the people that work in Detroit or wherever the vehicles are made/put together.  It has a huge trickle down affect.  My husband works where they make transmission and engine components for cars, then they ship to the big 3 as well as other places.  They mostly do timing chain but also make the tensioners and other small parts.  If it wasn't for the other brands of vehicles that they make parts for ,such as Toyota and Harley, they whole place would be shut down by now.  So you have to remember how many people will be out of jobs, not just those that work for Ford, GM, or Chrysler.  There are tons of automotive shops like that all around the US that send small parts to the car companies.

So even though it is bullcrap that they are flying around in their $20,000 a trip jets, they are just being totally selfish to everyone.  Thousands upon thousands of people are going to lose their jobs if something isn't done.  This is coming from a side of the view that hits home to me.  My Sister also works at the shop as well as many friends.

Tracee

[Primal Rage Outdoors 0]

This is a subject that I am really glad we can talk about, but the views stay relatively the same, we don't agree with a bailout, especially when the executives beleive they deserve their rediculous salaries and sat on national TV defending that in effect; they are the main factor in keeping their respective companies running, what a joke, when the employees leave, the execs will have no jobs also, then what, they get to file bankruptcy on their personal assets and keep the summer home in the hamptons, what a crock! But as stated this crisis has a trickle down effect to all of us, so the question i pose to my educated friends here on this forum...what do WE do as individuals, parents, husbands,& wives, workers, etc...to survive?

[Rodger 527]

All of the wars have been expensive , especially this 1 . That expense with the money that the several hurricanes cost along with help our country sent to the sunami victims etc has to be balanced somewhere it would seem . I know our money isnt backed by gold anymore . Do they balance the books so to speak ? or just print more money ?

There were 30 new FEMA mobile homes near-by that were sold for under $1,000 each ( cost $40,000 + each ) It's mind boggling to imagine how much is spent within the US . The working class people ( the mules of our society that pay more most of everything  ) have been burdened more than usual lately .

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I was reading more on this lat night. It seems that the $25 million is a good investment. Apparently, the big 3,between them, are expected to put $146 BILLION back into the government coffers via taxes in all areas.

Agree or not about a bailout...one fact remains...if something isn't done to keep the big3 in business,the effects on the economy will be devastating, widespread,and will hurt each and every one of us.

The great depression on the 30's was not directly caused by the stock market crash. It was caused by the lack of credit,closing of banks, which resulted in the closing of factories, resulting in massive loss of jobs.

Again I say it...most people today are NOT CAPABLE of surviving the way people were back then. People are in debt up to their eyeballs,living from paycheck to paycheck.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"....George Santayana

[Rodger 527]

I read on a Nacar site that General Motors is underway with Chrsler to absorb them . I think GM traded the financing division ( GMAC ) for the car co . I'm not sure if it is all 3 divisions of Chrysler yet ( Chrsyler , Dodge &  ... Plymouth  ( Ply-mouth may not exist anymore ) Might not chnage the bail-out money needed though .

[Print Star 0]

It makes me angry to even talk about it! I have been at an automotive supplier for 19 yrs. Things were great for the first 15. Everyone in the industry was making money hand over fist. As soon as things slowed down they immediately came after the hourly employees for pay cuts and benifits. The CEOs and most salary didn't loose anything. Mullaly, ford ceo, makes 28mil a year. Is anyone worth 500,000 a week? Thats about what the president makes  a year! I know this is America and you can aspire to be anything you want to be and the sky is the limit as far as money you can make but this is just rediculous. I can hardly afford to live as it is and you have millionaires begging for billions. IT STINKS!!! Somehow I don't think this is the America that the forefathers had in mind.