A Pricing thought- using thesignexpert

[American And Proud 2]

I think that www.thesignexpert.com is a pretty GOOD TOOL to use when pricing.

For some reason some think they come up on the high side, I am NOT one of those people.

Here is a thought for those who do.-

Say your Designing a Banner or 18"x24" Coroplast sign or Lettering for a door or storefront with your customer sitting there waiting/Watching over your shoulder.

Have that site Open but minimized, when the layout/design work is done and it's time to Estimate a Price, Open up the site and fill everything out and get your Price, Watch the customers reaction, if they don't squeel with fright, thats your Price. (The National Average Price)

IF they do start crying about the cost and you WANT the job you can then play it by ear and say something like, That's the National Average Pricing for this type work and depending on the actual job at hand here I can Deduct _ _ % off. 10%, 15%, Maybe even 20%, MAYBE 20 depending on the job.

Right then and there they will See the Value of your work, and then feel you are cutting them a Deal on price, without just Guessing a price and undercutting yourself out of money you Should be getting for the job.

This will give you a Consistancy to your pricing without having someone later complain, "But you did it for so and so for less last month."

(Homer voice ON)

DOH!

(Homer voice OFF)

But if your doing it without the customer there Use the site anyways, Then if you somehow feel it came up on the High side come to a sign forum and Ask for opinions either way, then you are well informed, know the going national average, and can be prepared to Justify your price if the customer asks how you came up with that price.

And remember "one offs" should Always be priced HIGHER.

You do ONE 18"x24" Coroplast sign for someone you should charge a Premium Price for doing just ONE. Not a Ripoff price but when doing a one off your design time is based on just ONE unit and not spread out into 25 or more units. (Unless you are charging a design Fee, in that case most likely you aren't low balling your prices to begin with.)

At 15-24 you can cut a Small break in price and at 25-50 you can cut a little better price and so on.

A one off little one color 5"x5" sticker you Should have a set MINIMUM Price, maybe 15.00-20.00, somewhere in that range to at the very least make it worth your while.

Have a look here for some other pricing thoughts I had recently.

http://forum.uscutter.com/index.php/topic,24426.msg193688.html#msg193688

I have posted others but you'll have to search my posts for them.

Hope this Helps some people, undercutting prices down to nothing isn't any good for anyone doing this either as a Hobby or for a Living.

Those that are doing it as a hobby only, you should still be within reason of the going rate in your area.

You just never know what may happen in the future and this would have to become your only means of paying the bills and taking care of your family. Just something to think about.

[MaderDesign 3]

Very nice A&A. I agree, one off stuff should def have it's own price. I worked for a Print and Design company here locally helping them out, and I was told he marks stuff up around 20% of what it should cost so that it gives him a little play in the price and the customer still thinks they are getting a good deal when i say i'll take 10% off that price.

But here is what I do, I can price it even lower then this guy and people are like, wow, your work is great and the price is too, we're not going back to him lol. And i'm still able to make a really good profit. This guy is unreal when it comes to pricing stuff, and his work is not that great at all. And he's soooo slow, he tells clients a week and it's more like 2.

Great write up A&A.

[ff-extreme 6]

Well stated 

[American And Proud 2]

That's "A&P" Mader, wtf is A&A? 

Well the way I see it is alot of people just getting started feel their "hobby" isn't worth what it actually IS worth.

And make the Mistake of Cheating Themselves and the industry.

If someone walked into your daytime Job and told your boss "Hey I will do HIS/HER JOB for 1/2 of what you are paying them to do it" and your boss calls you into his/her office and says I got an offer from someone that will do YOUR Job for HALF price, are YOU willing to take a 50% paycut?

Hits a little closer to Home when thought of that way don't it?

IF you bought a cheap cutter Just to do this as a "hobby" thats Fine and Dandy, a hobby is making stuff for freinds and family as Gifts (FREE), but once you take that step into making stuff and Charging for it, it is No longer just a Hobby.

Then it has become a SIDE Business full or part time.

You are now in Competition with others in your area for Work. And with the web, the World.

Giving away Work is basically Cheating yourself. At your day job are you Worth what you Earn? Willing to take a paycut because someone up the street just wants to do Your Job as a "hobby" just for the Fun of it?

It is also Cheating the small family run sign business trying to make a living, feed and house their children just like you try doing for yours at your full time day job.

Thats why I feel a site for estimating with a national Average is an Important Tool to Use.

I myself was in a completely different Trade, I made GOOD money at that Trade, worked my butt off at it as it was a hard job.

Hard work kept my family clothed,fed, and a Home for us to live in.

Just an average hard working middle income family doing the best we can.

Like most, you want Better for your kids than you had, so you work Hard to provide that for them, make sacrifices for them. Whatever it takes.

It ended (my day job Trade)with a slip of the knife (literally) and after some surgeries the damage could not be fully repaired and I cannot return to that former Trade.

Now What? Middle aged (later 40's), a High School Diploma and a 5 year Apprenticeship to Journyman status, that can no longer provide.

Keep in mind it only takes a second and your chosen career can be Gone in an instant, accident or let go, the weekly paycheck your used too is Gone.

This the Vinyl sign/lettering Trade can provide if as beginners we all understand that it has a Value and Worth, that has been Established for a long time.

Businesses PAY for Advertising. How much is a SUPER BOWL Commecial?

"Prices for advertising space can typically cost millions of dollars; 30 seconds of advertising time during the 2010 telecast is expected to cost US $3.01 million" Taken from here> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_advertising

So 75.00-100.00 for a nice set of magnetic signs don't really cost all that much and lasts alot longer that 30 Seconds.

Add a Graphic and a few colors and the price should go Up.

9 Years ago I had a 3 piece set of Magnets made with 4 colors and a Graphic and had them cut larger to fit my vans doors at a cost of $225.00, and they were paid for with the First sidejob I did after someone saw them and called me to do a sidejob in my former Trade.

After that first job from them being on my van was all Free advertising for me and I made alot of extra sidejob money that made sure my kids birthdays and Christmas were extra nice.

Think about your Boss at your day job, he/she has the nice big house, the second home with built in pool in Florida, the fancy cars. All gotten by being business Smart and not Giving away the services they provide.

If you are Smart you can Earn some extra money to get a few Extras for your family by doing this on the side, without cheating yourself or grossly undercutting the local person doing it full time with a storefront.

Bidding on a job you only have to be little less than the next guy to get the job, and or provide a Better service.

I am one who will be giving this a Full Time shot, starting from my home and hopefully make it into a full time storefront.

Maybe even Hire my kids to work it as well.

Just some more common sense thoughts on pricing. IMHO.

[tekcorps 50]

All excellent points and things to think about when you quote your next job. 

Well done A&P.

[MaderDesign 3]

A&A, great write up A&P i'm sorry.

I enjoyed reading that. And the others that undermine us is what damages this industry and business. It makes me sick. I get it all the time. Well so and so can do it for this cheap. Then go there! I'm trying to make money, not lose money. That company won't be around much longer and the products prolly are not the same quality. People love to compare apples to oranges.

[Guest fivestar]

Excellent posts A&P. 

[pastortommy 0]

Well said, A&P. 

[American And Proud 2]

Typo's happen Mader.  I was only kidding, heck I type with One finger on one hand just huntin and a peckin away here.

I can actually type that way pretty Fast, but dont ask me to look away from the keys as I am typing. LOL Talking to a friend for a few years long distance in chat rooms gave me my one fingered speed. lol

Thanks for the nice replies, I kind of thought I would catch a bunch of slack about this, I know it can get to be a touchy subject.

I just want to let people know it is OK to make a Profit, if your at home and your work is Good and up to par with any shop than you Should be paid as well.

Of course if you suck at this you won't be. lol

This is for people starting out and don't really know what the Value of this is to Businesses.

There is No shame in making a decent living. An Honest wage.

My hope is anyone that reads these posts will see that they don't and should not just give their Work away, because one day it just may be your Only source of Bread & Butter.

Using a Simple to use basically Free estimate guide (Donate a few bones their way if you use it to keep it Free) can help guide you to sencible estimating that you can rely on that one banner comes up a certain price, then 5 months lather you are making the equivalent banner and it will be the same price. Consistancy.

Thanks for reading. And Happy Bidding!

[#D-zine# 2]

I like how you think A&P.  Very good examples that really makes you think about it differently. I have been guilty of "giving" away some of my work not thinking it was worth much.  I have quickly learned though and have thrown out set prices now and still seem to keep people interested. 

Great right up!

[American And Proud 2]

Thanks Fader,

I think it's a common sense approach to esimating and pricing.

I hope everyone looks at this post I made as well, when things go Wrong, you'll be glad to priced correctly.

http://forum.uscutter.com/index.php/topic,24426.msg193688.html#msg193688

Another thought I did not mention here is-

NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER, NEVER (I did say NEVER) Listen to that old BS line of- "Hey if you cut me a Deal on this first job I will send more work your way." That is the oldest Bull Sh*t line in the book.

They want you to do it for them as Cheaply as possible while lieing to you that more work will be sent your way.

This is done in ALL trades you get these people, and 99.9% you Never see nor hear from them again.

They are on to the next vulnerable business that falls for that old suckers line.

Here is how I have handled these types in the past -As soon as they say that line of crap, I say to them, Heres the deal, this IS my price to do this job for you, it is already a completely Fair price and one I think you will find hard to beat for the quality work and materials I will provide for you.

IF After you have sent me say 5-10 More jobs, then and Only then can we even begin to start talking about a loyal retuning customer discount.

All the while looking them straight in the eyes as you tell them.

Projects Confidence and lets them know, YOU are in charge of Your business, and not a one time potential customer wanting some kind of a major pricing Deal on Imaginary false promises of future work.

That, by the way, IF, and thats a Major IF, they did send you another job they again will want it CHEAP and you can bet they will say but you did the first one for this much, I thought you could do this one even Cheaper now.

Trust me you are gonna hear this line of crap from potential customers over and over again. If you fall for it, they get your work cheap and walk away saying "SUCKER!"

NEVER fall for it and have a response like I have presented at the ready, be polite but Firm that No discounts will begin until you (they) are an Established Returning Regular Customer. PERIOD.

[Truckntran 0]

"I just want to let people know it is OK to make a Profit..."

In a nutshell... that's the real deal! 

[DanielB 0]

If I were to use the sign expert for pricing, I wouldnt get any job.  That may just be my area.  They price 1 color 1 sided banners at 7.50 SF....2 sided 1 color coro signs at 37.50......im in the wrong town in someone can get that much.....i get 3.50 maybe 4 a sf for banners, 20-25 for coro.  Its frustrating around here because everyones prices are low.  I can go down the street to another signshop and buy a printed banner for 4 bucks a sf.  Who sells it that cheap, I mean its rediculous!!!!  People like this somehow manage to stay in business.  I am not sure how.  Wow, just wanted to vent a little.  Thanks to everyone who reads. lol

[American And Proud 2]

This is the reason for this post. Far to many undercutting pricing so bad that it may just end up as a Hobby for everyone with a cutter.

Sign shops are now having to compete with every Tom Dick and Harry who can buy a cutter and some vinyl.  They do NO research and price Far too LOW. And start selling for pennies on the dollar that Should be made for their Work.

It Hurts EVERYONE trying to make a living wage and even those trying to make a few extra bucks.

Soon even the people giving away this Work will have to pay the person wanting it !

Glad I live in a large urban area and not out in the sticks. (even tho I would Love to move out to them and live)

Gotta SELL Yourself as Best as you can, Do Better Looking Work than the next guy and hold your ground.

[DanielB 0]

Im trying and its hard. lol  Even Fast Signs in my area sells full color for 4.50 a sf.  That pricing screws everything up.  I dont have a printer, havent really needed one but every job I price with full color I dont get because they can go to fast signs and get it for half the price.  Those places sell quantity, not quality, but really the consumer doesnt care as long as they get the best price.  I have a customer now, shoping prices on 32 SF of RTA, We are talking about $100 bucks, but I bet my price gets beat. ha ha  Well it makes me feel a little better to vent and I still have customers that are faithful to me but its hard getting new customers with all the other cutthroats in town.