WARNING TO EVERYONE!!!!

[Rodger 527]

A receipt that the walk up customer specifically asked for to be itemized . I'm sure if Lara goes to court the Judge would weigh the entrapment type circumstance heavily in lara's favor IF she has witnesses that SHOW up & attest to what Lara has explained .

[MZ SKEETER 4,709]

I will let you guys know what my lawyer comes up with and keep everyone posted, especially with the misrepresentation part of the deal.  One thing that I might be screwed on is the fact that on the receipt I itemized every piece of vinyl that I put on that car.  I did a barbed wire design with blood drips, drivers name 2 layers, crew names, door numbers for each door in 4 layers, 1 number for the fuel cell 4 layers, one for the front nose piece 4 layers, the dewalt sticker, a flaming lizard for each door, various stripes, and I itemized each item and only charged .95 cents for the dewalt decal. I did that because she wanted a detailed invoice because according to her, several people were helping her pay for the lettering. SUCKER!!  It's pasted right across my forehead.  My boyfriend just noticed that on the file in Illy, I didn't exactly replicate the decal.  The dewalt logo has a stripe across the top and one across the bottom.  My file in Illy only has the stripe across the top.  Maybe that will help me.

yes, as the above mentioned post reads,  a detailed invoice including the Dewalt decal

[vianyl 1]

So I guess the big question is and I might have missed it. When doing a logo for someone even if a representative, employee, etc for a company do we have to get express written permission for replication from the corporate company themselves or just written documentation from the purchaser saying they have express legal consent from the company to hire us for the work putting all the liability on them.

[Rodger 527]

From everything I have read , the law says " written permission from the owner " . If I give you a bill of sale for your neighbors car & he reports it stolen ... guess who they are gonna charge ? The key word you used is " saying " . In lara's case, the person who had the decals made "said " they had permission etc .  Lara " may ' have rercourse on that person, but I doupt it would be worth what it would cost to go after them .

[Dr12volt1338 116]

Just a thought I only skimmed through this but when I do window tint here in Michigan you can only have the top few inches of the front doors tinted however it's not illegal for me to apply it it's illegal for the customer to have it. I have them initial the bottom of the receipt which I keep a copy of stating they are aware of this. What about not charging for the vinyl but only charging for the labor to install it which is "padded" some..... I don't know just thinking I am sure the law is more against cutting them in general but there has to be a loop hole in the system there is enough of those race cars around I know not all of those decals came right from the manufacturer.

[CyberChuck 4]

Or, a simple answer would be to write a brief clause on the bottom of the work order that says something like "Customer warrants that any and all permission required for the use of the images ordered has been obtained and releases ABC Graphics from any liability resulting from the manufacture of the items" and have them either sign or initial by it.

At least then, you would have something in writing that states you were under the impression the customer had permission. And, if it goes to court, it would be proof that you were entrapped and, at a minimum, the individual who ordered the decals would be jointly responsible.

Charlie

[CyberChuck 4]

    LOL!!! All you have to do then is be better at looking innocent than them. Sorta like the story about the two guys camping that see an angry bear in the woods. One of them sits down and changes from his hiking boots to some track shoes. His buddy asks him, " Why are you changing shoes? Surely you don't think you can outrun a bear?" to which he replied, "I don't have to outrun the bear - I just have to outrun YOU."

Charlie

[tory 0]

Or, a simple answer would be to write a brief clause on the bottom of the work order that says something like "Customer warrants that any and all permission required for the use of the images ordered has been obtained and releases ABC Graphics from any liability resulting from the manufacture of the items" and have them either sign or initial by it.

At least then, you would have something in writing that states you were under the impression the customer had permission. And, if it goes to court, it would be proof that you were entrapped and, at a minimum, the individual who ordered the decals would be jointly responsible.

Charlie

I checked with a lawyer, as that is exactly what I do is put a disclaimer on the invoice, but he stated that would NOT save you in a lawsuit. You would still be held liable.

[CyberChuck 4]

What I was trying to convey is the means to have a defense. It would not excuse you from a civil action, but you would have it in writing that the person ordering the item had the required permission. Then, if that person or the company they work for filed suit against you, a judge would look very closely at how they deliberately deceived you and tricked you into believing they had the authority to order these materials.

Charlie

[Rodger 527]

  " What I was trying to convey is the means to have a defense. "

that is what my lawyer buddy calls " something to hang your hat on " NOT a legal defense , but the best excuse you can come up with . I forget the legal term , but no matter who tells you , gives you permission or even gives you written permission , unless it is the legal owner , it does not excuse the person breaking the law  ( criminal or civil ) . It does not make your offense any less unless the Judge decides that is the case . Sorta like getting a speeding ticket , If the car behind you going the same speed gets a ticket or not , it does not effect your case .    I seen 30 cops on Rt# 100 have about 50 cars stopped about 1/4 mile after the radar trap . I would have liked to have been in court that day listening to all the defenses . 

[tory 0]

Rodg would be correct, that is what the lawyer said as well.....and he did call it something too but I forget.....something along the lines of it's your business so they expect you to know the laws that pertain to it

[CyberChuck 4]

    Taking that into count, a sign company is required by law to research every image and phrase that they get an order for to ensure that they are not copyrighted by anyone other than the current customer.

    I would file an appeal in a heartbeat if I had a written release from a customer stating that they were authorized to use an image and it was later discovered that they committed fraud by signing the authorization illegally. I am not a lawyer, but I have dealt with the court system before - judges use common sense (believe it or not). A judge who found me 100% liable after I had a written authorization from someone I believed to be authorized by the owner to create the copy, I would appeal the ruling. It would be different if I had reason to believe the person was lying, but otherwise....

    So, I suppose that means that if I go to a local business and talk with the store manager about redo'ing his faded out sign and he says yes. If I create the sign, the store owner can sue me for selling his logo to the manager. I had reason to believe that the manager was authorized to order the materials when he ordered them. Guess I can only deal with business owners now; and only after verifying that they are the actual owner (and not a partner).

    This could get really ridiculous.

Charlie

Charlie

[tory 0]

    Taking that into count, a sign company is required by law to research every image and phrase that they get an order for to ensure that they are not copyrighted by anyone other than the current customer.

    I would file an appeal in a heartbeat if I had a written release from a customer stating that they were authorized to use an image and it was later discovered that they committed fraud by signing the authorization illegally. I am not a lawyer, but I have dealt with the court system before - judges use common sense (believe it or not). A judge who found me 100% liable after I had a written authorization from someone I believed to be authorized by the owner to create the copy, I would appeal the ruling. It would be different if I had reason to believe the person was lying, but otherwise....

    So, I suppose that means that if I go to a local business and talk with the store manager about redo'ing his faded out sign and he says yes. If I create the sign, the store owner can sue me for selling his logo to the manager. I had reason to believe that the manager was authorized to order the materials when he ordered them. Guess I can only deal with business owners now; and only after verifying that they are the actual owner (and not a partner).

    This could get really ridiculous.

Charlie

Charlie

Chuck I have found "our laws" redic on many occasion. I've always said I wouldn't trust them enough to get me out of something I KNOW 100% that I didn't commit. I questioned why my daughter would choose that as her profession when she sees things as black and white but "they" twist things to suit their needs. At the end of the day it won't matter if you appeal or are right or wrong because they will gladly take your money. It won't matter to me if I am found "right" after spending my fortune to prove it so. And yes, as ludicrous as it sounds every sign company is supposed to know what they are creating so as not to breal copyright laws. I was just as astounded as you. 

[Rodger 527]

I am not agreeing that the trademark/copyright thing it is reasonable , fair or that I don't break those rules etc . I am just sharing my experience & knowledge ( yes it is an expensive thing to learn , that is why I thnk it is good to share like Lara has  ) If someone sets you up as in Laras case or you get filed on for any reason . the law is the law & excuses are not a legal defense ( my sense of humor has " the Devil made me do it " from Flip Wilson ;0 )

If you make anything that is not something you create , then you are liable/responsible to make sure it is not trademarked or copyrighted .

I agree 100% that Judges use common sense & some WAY more than others , but if you are in violation , there is not that much they can do but to decide the case on the facts & " the law " . The cost to hire a lawyer effects the manner you go thru it to most people . When a Judge awards $1 in damages , that stops most lawsuits . The expense of sueing someone is a major factor in what happens & to who . That is why some businesses are set up so no personal belongins can be attached no matter what judgement amount is awarded . Those 3 things is what the flea market violaters etc know & bank on IMO  .

[vianyl 1]

One thing this really points out is that you want to make your company an LLC so if anything does happen, all they can do is go after the company and the companies assets. I talked to my lawyer before creating my business and I can lease all my equipment from myself(actually another LLC I created) so that way if someone does attack my "real" business, all they can really get is some stationary and rolls of vinyl/application tape. Try to catch me now!

[Rodger 527]

I'm sure some companies are set up belonging to people judgement immune & so that the real people running them are technically employees . A silly game , but best to be safe than sorry . Since this has been a center peice of attention here , as I was walking around the NBM show in Baltimore this past weekend wondering if anybody had the " right " to make what was being made by every retailer . Hmmm ...

[tshirtn00b 12]

Every year at our annual county fair, there is a trailer set up for cut vinyl decals.  he's got everything. ford, chevy, polaris, etc. including calvin peeing on anything you can imagine.  I went and spoke with the owner and he said that is all they do, is travel with big shows throughout the country.  No internet sales, not even an email address or a website.  Does anyone know how much it costs to get licensed by the big name companies?  Round about, i know it's not cheap!

[MZ SKEETER 4,709]

Every year at our annual county fair, there is a trailer set up for cut vinyl decals.  he's got everything. ford, chevy, polaris, etc. including calvin peeing on anything you can imagine.  I went and spoke with the owner and he said that is all they do, is travel with big shows throughout the country.  No internet sales, not even an email address or a website.  Does anyone know how much it costs to get licensed by the big name companies?  Round about, i know it's not cheap!

maybe you can start checking here,, 

www.fordbrandlicensing.com

[tory 0]

I was told for collegiate stuff a license is 10,000, that is for 1 school. I know some want a % of goods sold as well. Not cheap for sure and frats are the same way

[sarconastic 29]

The more modern licensing fees are based on sales for the most part from what i have read. Like 10% of wholesale sales and 5% of Retail. These are usually paid Quarterly. The Brand Licensing thing is starting to get more and more prevalent, but it is not designed to be easy for the little guy. It's more a corporate level design. For say a company that will pop out 10,000 shirts a month or so. Other wise it's not worth the branding companies time to do the paperwork.

Kevin

[ryan8281 0]

If you make someone copyrighted material, tell them they can give you a donation for makeing it for them, if they choose not to donate to you then dont do it. The problem is when u make a decal like that and put a price on it thats when the copyright  get you. You can make them but not charge for them. Thats where the donation comes in . Correct me if im wrong, but a layer told me this Just my 2cents..

[lueman 19]

I'm not a lawyer, but my business law 101 class says that dosen't get you off the hook, all it does is reduce the stated compensation to zero, but the company can still state you harmed them by misrepresenting the art. The question for the judge is what do you pay for simply giving away the work? 

[Rodger 527]

In 1 thread , somebody posted/quoted the law . Lueman is correct . Making it is what breaks the law no matter if you give it away , charge or a donation .  

[ryan8281 0]

So i guess my question is... When you go to a vendor and buy a hamburger just like the one mcdonalds makes or hardies or any other place does that mean they can get in trouble for selling them also? My step dad has made things out of steel for years and has had many trade marked or copyrite. He has taken 3 people that i know of to court for makeing the exact same thing and selling it. The problem with it was the people that made them just like his made a cut 1/16 different then his, so that being done it was not exactly like his and they got away with it. I just wanted to post something about this and see what people had to say. Keep up the good work folks

[lueman 19]

You can't trademark or copyright an Idea, so as long as you don't call it a 1/4 ponder or a wopper then sell all the burgers you want. But when dealling with art if it "looks" very much like the original work then it may infringe. If you traced the work then yes it can be held as a breach of copyright. But if you created an original work and it happens to look very much like an original then no, but you have the burdon of proof that you didn't copy the work such as  previous versions or sketches. Remember the original artist holds the copyright at creation but to exercise his/her full rights he/she has to register the work and most large corps require that the artist release the copyright to them. There is one shaky loophole: if a person especially such as an employee asks you to create the copyrighted work and that person acts as an agent for the company then you working in good faith have not infringed copyright afterall how can a company ever reproduce that work if it never releases copyright?? It's a real bear for a company to defend copyright under those circumstances that's why it's rarely prosecuted.