price check please

[tory 0]

I have sold things for less than the 'big guys' I feel my products are atleast just as good as 'the big guys' if not better.

I'm thinking of all those that want to advertise or have a sign for an event, that is in hard times right now....don't those people still deserve a quality product without being taken over the coals??

Jenny/John, I'm confused over the defensiveness I sense and not sure if it is directed towards me or someone else. I haven't read all of DarkDans posts so I don't know what he said elsewhere. But I don't think anyone was saying you/John does shoddy work? I wouldn't ask for his opinion if I didn't value it in the first place. There are many diff business philosophies but that doesn't mean any one person has all the answers. What works here in MI may not work in TN or elsewhere. I will say I've heard many others with his business philosophy as well. It is to what extreme it is used that makes the difference.

I will say since you stated your work is just as good/better than the big guys well then why don't YOU deserve to get paid for a quality job. Nobody suggested raking anyone over the coals. When you go into the grocery store are they bartering with us for a good deal because of the economy? Neither are our suppliers. I know for me garments/shipping have continually risen. I feel like I'm getting squeezed from both sides and I have bills too. Personally I live by do unto others what I want done to me. John said he is about 10-15 under others. I think that is competitive pricing depending on what a client wants.

[darkdan 3]

no,that guy doing it for $75 is up in his cherry picker installing a $10,000 sign that he will make a $7000 profit on.

Sounds like he's doing well instead of doing it cheap.

When someone else sells a two $75 banners, guess what, they might have grossed less, but their net profit will be higher than selling three $60 banners.  Plus they're have more material left for tomorrow, so less ordering, and less labor.

If I were going to build a house, I wouldn't pick the contractor that's 20% cheaper than everyone else.  What 1 of 5 things isn't he going to do that everyone else will?

[Rodger 527]

That sounds like advice given to Hechinger ( at 1 time a 200 store home improvement chain  ) ... what John is saying sounds like the advice given to Home Depot & Lowe's .... who is thriving & who went out of business , SAME products , just smaller profit margains . I was loyal to Hechinger until Home Depot saved me ALOT of money . That is the bottom line !!!

[Rodger 527]

no,that guy doing it for $75 is up in his cherry picker installing a $10,000 sign that he will make a $7000 profit on.

Sounds like he's doing well instead of doing it cheap.

When someone else sells a two $75 banners, guess what, they might have grossed less, but their net profit will be higher than selling three $60 banners.  Plus they're have more material left for tomorrow, so less ordering, and less labor.

If I were going to build a house, I wouldn't pick the contractor that's 20% cheaper than everyone else.  What 1 of 5 things isn't he going to do that everyone else will?

The reason he is doing it for $7,00 profit is the other guy wanted $7,500 profit . 

I'n not sure what "sells a two $75 banners " means  I am guessing you meant  -- sells two $75 banners - . John said He is doing 3 $60 banners for every $75 banner they do .

In the real world , the lowest bid gets the job .. including makeing the SpaceShuttles . The home builder that charges 20% less drives a chevy truck instead of a hummer & a VW TDi instead of a Corvette . We are talking about the same finished product , correct ? Home inspectors make sure builders do the job right & complete ,  our customers make sure they get what they want , as they want them .  When times get tough & also when competitors flood the market , prices drop . I can buy led watchs now for $1 that sold for over $200 when they first came out . Vinyl cutters have gotten VERY affordable & competition is fierce . E-bay offers wholesale prices to those who don't need it tomorrow . I bought 2 cutters just to do my own stuff . High prices will lead to many people buying cutters & doing things in-house .

[darkdan 3]

I'n not sure what "sells a two $75 banners " means  I am guessing you meant  -- sells two $75 banners - . John said He is doing 3 $60 banners for every $75 banner they do .

Sorry, I put an "a" in there.  Unless John has access to all of his competition's receipt books how does he know they're selling 1:3 or 2:3 or 1:1.

Fact remains, if someone out there is doing two $75 banners instead of catering to the cheapest customers, then they will make the same or more than three $60 banners (obviously exact material cost does play a roll, but the net profit is close).

In the real world , the lowest bid gets the job .. including makeing the SpaceShuttles . The home builder that charges 20% less drives a chevy truck instead of a hummer & a VW TDi instead of a Corvette . We are talking about the same finished product , correct ?

Nope, we're not.  The 35W bridge didn't go the lowest bidder.  Some were upset about that.  They got it into their head a bridge is a bridge and the lowest bidder should have gotten it.  Some realize that quality should come first.

This isn't an on-the-shelf product.  We're offering a trade SKILL.  Not everyone can do what we can do.  Not everyone has the patience to measure six times before applying.  Not everyone can spend 14 minutes adjusting the outline of something.  These aren't widgets coming off an assembly line.

Home inspectors make sure builders do the job right & complete ,

There's a difference between passing code and doing a good job.  I spent 2.5 years in the construction field and it didn't take long to realize that.

Vinyl cutters have gotten VERY affordable & competition is fierce .

Yes that have.  I myself have bought one.  I think that's more than half the reason that many people here resist the fact that cheaper isn't better.  We all have the DIY attitude.  That's why we bought these machines.  Any one of us could have bought a $6,000 plotter, but instead we figured we could afford these and get them and do the same things.

Even USCutterdirect.com has realized this and started offering more expensive plotters!

Can my refine do everything a graphtec can do?  Most likely not.  Don't get me wrong, I haven't had a problem with my refine.  I love this thing.  I'm going to name children after it.  But does it advance after plot?  NO!  Does it wake my neighbors?  Yes!  Do my cats run every time it gets powdered on?  Yes!

Can the cheapest sign shop out there do everything the best sign shop there can do?.........

All I'm doing is trying to teach everyone here simple things:

1.) YOU are worth something.  Charge for it.

2.) If you chase the cheap customers, that's all you'll ever have.

3.) Anytime you can make more money for less work, do it.

Know what happened the last time I got a 1000 decal order?  I subbed it out.  I made less net, but it wasn't worth my time to make them.  I got paid very well to make three phone calls and two emails though!  That time that I would have spent making those decals I used productively to do other things.  Why could I do this?  Because there are cheaper people out there (I won't use this guy again because I did have a few problems and had to replace some of his work).

Should you take advantage of your customers?  No.  Should you be taken advantage of?  NO!

[tory 0]

I understand the message Darkdan is trying to convey. He can't be too far off as I've also heard it stated on the embroidery forums. I really don't think he is suggesting we gouge our customers. More that we get paid what we deserve.

BTW for those that are building their house, as I have, not to mention being in the electrical trade for many years I suggest you look over the inspectors shoulders as they just make sure the min is done. It is truly ridiculous, which is why I decided to build ourselves vs a cookie cutter house made w inferior product.

[Rodger 527]

I don't think John or anybody wants to get paid less , Just want to give a good product for a good price & make money . Not sit by & wait for work . If making a banner took $5,000 worth of equipment , $30 of materials & 1 hour , I would think someone with $1,000 worth of equipment , $30 of materials & 1 hour of time could make the same profit margain charging a little less & get more work ... which relates to more profit . also Digitial viynl printing is getting cheaper by the day & makes vinyl cutting cheaper . How many vinyl cutters are being sold ( especially on e-bay ) compared to 10 years ago .  If I can buy a cutter & make signs , decals etc ... almost anybody can .

I have been a self employed contractor for 32 years . I've put in thousands of septic systems , basements , landscaping .. everything that is done with backhoes , Loaders , dozers , bobcats etc . Not 1 job was done any different because of profit margain . Everybody got the same job I contracted for if i lost a bundle , broke even or made a bundle . We are talking about a banner with vinyl on it .. I can't see much variation in an acceptable banner . When there were only a few people putting in Septic systems around me , I could charge alot more than when everybody got in on the deal . I stopped dropping my prices after competitors drove the price too cheap . I got into buying-selling & moving mobile homes because not many people do that & I get paid alot . Supply & Demand , There is ALOT of signmakers & especially signs available on e-bay will continue to drive prices down .

[FatDad 2]

wow and all i asked for was a price check.

since im donating these how would i write up the receipt?

[tory 0]

LOL FatDad, I was waiting for that. Really, I just innocently inquired, didn't mean for it all to snowball. You may want to check w your accountant, they have their own ideas for recording donations. For me, I write up an invoice with the prices and then 0 for the amt due.

[BannerJohn 1,324]

I don't think John or anybody wants to get paid less , Just want to give a good product for a good price & make money . Not sit by & wait for work . If making a banner took $5,000 worth of equipment , $30 of materials & 1 hour , I would think someone with $1,000 worth of equipment , $30 of materials & 1 hour of time could make the same profit margain charging a little less & get more work ... which relates to more profit . also Digitial viynl printing is getting cheaper by the day & makes vinyl cutting cheaper . How many vinyl cutters are being sold ( especially on e-bay ) compared to 10 years ago .  If I can buy a cutter & make signs , decals etc ... almost anybody can .

I have been a self employed contractor for 32 years . I've put in thousands of septic systems , basements , landscaping .. everything that is done with backhoes , Loaders , dozers , bobcats etc . Not 1 job was done any different because of profit margain . Everybody got the same job I contracted for if i lost a bundle , broke even or made a bundle . We are talking about a banner with vinyl on it .. I can't see much variation in an acceptable banner . When there were only a few people putting in Septic systems around me , I could charge alot more than when everybody got in on the deal . I stopped dropping my prices after competitors drove the price too cheap . I got into buying-selling & moving mobile homes because not many people do that & I get paid alot . Supply & Demand , There is ALOT of signmakers & especially signs available on e-bay will continue to drive prices down .

It is nice to see someone use plain logic and common sense. The dinosaurs will all be gone eventually.

[Rodger 527]

wow and all i asked for was a price check.

since im donating these how would i write up the receipt?

LOL , that is funny  ( the collective attitude of a member's ( this thread , darkdan ) posts is why some threads get deep , but it's all good  )  WOW , donating REALLY screws up this debate about pricing !!! :thumbsup:

receipt price depends on your legal morals, i think whatever the top " retail " price would apply & be legally acceptable by the IRS . Whatever a storefront local signmaker would charge  . That's what big business & the rich guys would do . Being honest , it would be what you would have actually charged IMHO .