Running Cutter From Power Inverter (Conclusion in Page 4)

[midwaste 4]

I have a hard time believing that the sine vs. modified sine power to the cutter has anything to do with your inability to connect to the cutter with your laptop, it doesn't really make sense.

I would check that something else may have caused that problem, was the laptop using AC during both scenarios, did you use the same USB port, all the same cords, etc.

[lueman 19]

It depends on the UPS- if it provides "Conditioned" power then yes it'll clean up the sine wave. I have a little problem with the USB not working off of inverter power. the laptops' Power transformer should have cleaned up the power before getting to the laptop. So what it sounds like the 400watts may be just a little underpowered to run both, maybe try a 500-600 watt  unit or/and run the laptop directly off the 12V from the car (Use a manufacturers 12v adapter). Also check your settings when connected using inverter power maybe they change for some known reason when on inverter power. If is was truly a USB/PS problem you would get erratic results from the plotter ie moving, stalling, stopping etc.

Finally it could be a grounding issue  between the USB and Power - If it is  BE CAREFULL check with tech support before you connect a ground between the laptop & plotter, you could have a BBQ featuring fryed PC-laptop and PCB-board ala LP24. In most cases the groung should run from Plotter TO INVERTER and Laptop TO INVERTER (NOT laptop directly to plotter) in any case trust what tech support says I don't have access to the LP's internal wiring.

[sheister 1]

Hello and thanks for the input. I was successfully able to power both the laptop and cutter from a 400 watt standard (modified sine wave) inverter. This is the type you will buy unless you specifically purchase a pure sine wave inverter and you will notice the huge price difference. I.E. MY 400 watt inverter (very nice) cost me about 40 dollars. The cheapest 300 watt pure sine wave inverter I have been able to find is 100.00. I dont think 400 watts was too little power because my inverter has a digital output measure and with both the laptop and cutter connected it was only about 150 watts. Engine never up revved when turning on both. I was able to jog the plotter head back and forth effortlessly . When I connected the usb to the same port as from in shop config it wouldn't recognize it. And yes the laptop was also connected to power source ( battery is only about  2 hours when fully charged). This is most likely because the signal from the cutter is coming from a pulsed (modified) sine wave. This is a well documented issue when operating sensitive equip.  I rebooted laptop while still connected to inverter and tried again. Still no recognition. Went back inside and duplicated everything inside and everything worked just fine.  Just google pure sine wave versus modified sine wave and you will find a lot on this subject. And yes the connections are grounded through the inverter which is grounded to the battery of my car.

But what I was really hoping for is somebody who is already doing this to offer some info on how they are doing this. Until that happens I will continue to research this and I will post the results. Thanks again for everybody's input on this.

Regards

Sheister

[CyberChuck 4]

Hello and thanks for the input. I was successfully able to power both the laptop and cutter from a 400 watt standard (modified sine wave) inverter. This is the type you will buy unless you specifically purchase a pure sine wave inverter and you will notice the huge price difference. I.E. MY 400 watt inverter (very nice) cost me about 40 dollars. The cheapest 300 watt pure sine wave inverter I have been able to find is 100.00. I dont think 400 watts was too little power because my inverter has a digital output measure and with both the laptop and cutter connected it was only about 150 watts. Engine never up revved when turning on both. I was able to jog the plotter head back and forth effortlessly . When I connected the usb to the same port as from in shop config it wouldn't recognize it. And yes the laptop was also connected to power source ( battery is only about  2 hours when fully charged). This is most likely because the signal from the cutter is coming from a pulsed (modified) sine wave. This is a well documented issue when operating sensitive equip.  I rebooted laptop while still connected to inverter and tried again. Still no recognition. Went back inside and duplicated everything inside and everything worked just fine.  Just google pure sine wave versus modified sine wave and you will find a lot on this subject. And yes the connections are grounded through the inverter which is grounded to the battery of my car.

But what I was really hoping for is somebody who is already doing this to offer some info on how they are doing this. Until that happens I will continue to research this and I will post the results. Thanks again for everybody's input on this.

Regards

Sheister

Just a quick note. Your engine will NEVER idle up due to the inverter. The inverter is not drawing on the engine. The alternator is spun by the serpantine belt, but it cannot cause enough draw to cause the idle to increase. The only belt driven device in your car that can affect the idle would be the a/c compressor (and I believe he ecm cause the increase in rpms when it engages - not the actual compressor).

Charlie

[sheister 1]

Thanks for that. I thought that if the draw was more than the idle was providing that the engine would rev up to cause the alternator to produce more power. When I powered up it didn't seem to in any way effect how my car was idling.

I have researched all day today the difference between getting a generator or an inverter. I am leaning towards an inverter due to the portability, low noise, and the cost at this point.

[CyberChuck 4]

Thanks for that. I thought that if the draw was more than the idle was providing that the engine would rev up to cause the alternator to produce more power. When I powered up it didn't seem to in any way effect how my car was idling.

I have researched all day today the difference between getting a generator or an inverter. I am leaning towards an inverter due to the portability, low noise, and the cost at this point.

I guess if you want to go with the silence, I understand it. But as far as portability and cost, the generator would probably be the way to go. The pure sine inverter will run you around $200 - 300; the deep cycle batteries will run you around $75.00 or so each. The generator would be a single item to transport and much simpler to configure (no need for wiring in series or a charger - your car alternator will not properly charge a deep cycle battery, as a matter of fact, using the alternator to charge them would cause their life to be seriously shortened).

Charlie

[sheister 1]

THanks for your input. Getting several batteries was kind of an afterthought due to an account of a person who said they were able to charge about 6 deep cycle batteries wired in series with an inverter during a hurricane. This was ideal because the car was outside and only needed to be turned on every so often to charge the battery array. He was able to power a large screen tv and several other items without the noise or fumes of a generator. I have researched several portable generators and the cheapest is about 300.00 (off brand name) if you look into honda and yamaha portable generators they are around 600 -800. I know I can get a cheaper less portable and more noisy generator with a higher wattage, but this defeats  my main goals. I have found a 300 watt pure sine wave inverter (brand name) for 130.00 shipped on ebay. I was planning on running my car all the time with the hood open and ac off. Though I may loose on fuel efficiency, I will be able to meet all my goals and save $ too. I need a configuration to be able to bring my operation to semi remote areas ( paintball scenario games and tournaments) where over 1000 ppl attend but power is limited and noise is not appreciated.

Thanks again

[CyberChuck 4]

      Without buying the extra batteries is a better way, then. But, before you buy the 300 watt inverter, you need to find out how much wattage you'll need. 300 Watts is equal to 2.5 amps at 120 Volts. My Toshiba laptop requires 1.5 amps by itself. My PCut 630 consumes roughly 1 amp. My setup would put a 300W inverter at its' max. Throw in a 100' extension cord and you're pushing your luck. I'd recommend a 400W inverter min.

Charlie

[sheister 1]

You may be right. But I was basing my assumption that a 300 watt inverter would work on two sources of experience. 1st from this quote

think your equation is slightly wrong, it should be:

A=(VA*PF)/V

A=(100*.60)/110 = 0.5A

This is using the maximum VA from uscutter (<100) and a PF of 60%, which is 0.6, not 0.06.  The VA spec given is based on 110V, not 12V, so you should divide by that, to the best of my knowledge.

0.5A sounds about right for the cutter.  I don't see it using 5A.

0.5*110=55W.  It sounds low, but that should be correct.  I don't have a clamp ammeter, but I'd like to verify that.

As far as the modified sine wave inverters/generators, they are not great for any electrical equipment..  If you are going to do this long-term, I would consider some sort of power conditioning, or a better inverter.

Second my 400 watt modified sine wave inverter has an output meter and with the laptop and the cutter connected it shows about 150 watts. So it seems to me that 300 should be enough. But I was curious, how were you able to determine the power usage of your cutter and laptop. And are the above figures in the quote box correct??

Thanks

[CyberChuck 4]

The amp draw from my laptop is listed on the power supply (1.5A) - that one was easy.

And I guesstimated my PCut. It draws around 100VA which is approximately  .65 amps.

The .5A that you came up with was based on a power factor (PF) of a number of .6 which is generally used when the PF isn't known or for general electronics. But since the cutter utilizes an electric motor, the power consumption will be slightly higher (somewhere between the .6 used before and . - I used .7 for my calculations. 

To convert the above to wattage, you multiply the voltage (120V) an the total amp draw (in my case approx. 2.15A) which equals a required wattage of 258W. This would put my power consumption at 86% of the available supply. I would want a little more wiggle room. Much like I never allow the fuel level in my truck to get to empty (even though I know the tank still holds a couple of gallons at that point).

Charlie

[lueman 19]

I'm not sure where you are with this project, but from reading the posts, if you still want to use deep cycle batteries then you need a charge controller  or a 'battery conditioner' it will help repair the low voltage charge when you're on the road. run it every night after using the inverter- it will help keep your batteries in top shape. Like chuck said you need at least 400watts I suggested 500watts because you want some cushion a low voltage condition will slowly kill your equipment and cause all kinds of erratic behavior. There is a expression that goes "Sometimes the cheapest option is to most expensive." be careful.

[sheister 1]

WOW I am so happy how this thread has kicked off!! The input has been great. I know this thread will help many people who are wanting to take their operation on the road like me . You all sound far more experienced with electrical stuff than I do. But I have a few questions regarding the previous 2 posts. First . Are you SURE your laptop draws 1.5 amps?? Or could it be that the power supply is a 1.5 amp power suppy with wiggle room? Second is there anything to the power reading from my 400 watt power inverter which read with both the laptop and the cutter connected reading only 155 watts?? I havent spent anything yet on an inverter as I still want to do more research. The problem here is that over 300 watts the cost starts to get too close to an off brand portable generator (approx 300 - 350 bux). Kind of want to avoid spending that much if possible. Portability is another plus. Any thoughts? Should I just make a video this weekend showing you all that both can be powered with a 400 watt inverter that is reporting about 155 watt draw??? lemme know . I am having fun with this. Would be nice if some of the people from US cutter would contribute to the power specs. 

Regards

sheister

[lueman 19]

Followup:

the VA for most practical applications IS the wattage. By definition W=V*A. the power factor was added by electrical engineers because it was very complicated figuring out how to pull the maximum efficiency out of a circuit.  Before PF was used ET's had to figure out the RMS voltage and the duty cycle of each device. a PF simply says this device under normal conditions, will use a certain percent of the maximum rated wattage (VA).But for most of us just using the VA directly makes more sense. SO given the above scenario 1.5a laptop uses a va of 180 plus 100 va from the plotter gives you 280 va. so yes you can just run the setup with a 300 watt inverter, but it's like a track runner running all out all the time there is very little room to rest. On a hot day the heat can cause your system a lot of stress and it will cause the inverter to drop below it's rated wattage.

[sheister 1]

Okay but is the draw from a laptop rated by the power supplie's rating? I dont think so. For some reason the earlier quote I posted seems correct to me because of the draw rating comming from my inverter saying 155 watts. In the previous quote stated the cutter uses about .5 camps and 55 watts. with a 300 watt inverter I was hoping i had enough wiggle room. I guess this all boils down to the power supply. And for some reason I dont think that just because a laptop is running off a 1.5 amp power supply, that the laptop is actually using a full 1.5 amps or anywhere near that. more practicle that the power supply is rated for that much incase the power usage surges or goes up do to intense usage. I.E. watching movies or playing games or something. Any thoughts.

[CyberChuck 4]

    I am sure the actual power consumption is below the maximum listed. Just as an inverter will not produce exactly what it is rated for. Nor will the electrical outlet in one's home produce the full 120V that it is supposed to. There is a "fudge factor" built into all things electrical.

    With that said, I feel far more comfortable accepting the manufacturer's recommended power ratings than I do trying to second guess the engineers who designed the system.

    Additionally, you have to keep in mind that your systems power consumption can (and will) change depending on circumstances.  If your dvd rom spins up = more power usage; processor starts running hotter = more power usage; utizing USB 2.0 ports (they supply power to whatever is connected) = power usage. These are just three things I can think of off the top of my head.

    I realize that this isn't what you were hoping to hear. But I stand by my recommendation to go with a larger power source. You may be able to run perfectly well on the 300W. But do you want to get out there; set up; cut a few decals; generate interest; and have your system shut down due to power issues with paying customers waiting for you?

    Also, you said you had issues with the cutter / pc communicating before. Have you figured out that issue yet? It may be an indicator that the power inverter needs to be larger. As I stated above, you have to remember you are powering your cutter through the inverter; the laptop through the inverter; and the cutter through the USB 2.0 port as well. Before you spend a lot of money on any power source, I would try the setup with a larger inverter first to see if that fixes things.

    Now, since I've been being all negative about the voltage/ amperage/ VoltAmps/ Wattage, etc. You want to hear a tru life story that will probably help you? Good, I thought you might 

    After Hurricane Katrina tore New Orleans a new one back in 2005, I went to work down in New Orleans east (one of the hardest hit areas). I have a mobile laptop mount in my truck for my laptop and I built a wooden rack in the back seat where I mounted a Hewlett Packard multifunction scanner / copier / fax / printer. I had this portable office powered by a 500W inverter. I plugged a surge protector into the inverter and the other items into it. I also used the ac power to keep my cell phone charged (ac chargers do a better job than cig lighter chargers). I also occassionally plugged the charger for my 18V cordless tools set in as well to keep the batteries for my tools charged. I used this set up from November of 2005 until June of 2006. Ran the system for at least 6 hours a day, every day, 7 days a week. I still have thae laptop (although I have purchased a new one since then) and it still functions perfectly. I never had any issues with any of the equipment or the inverter. I still have the inverter and I use it with my new laptop in my new truck. I even used it with a 100 foot extension cord to power my lcd tv and digital antenna after Hurricane Gustav hammered us here in Baton Rouge last year. Still have the tv and it works fine.

    If you are worried about having adequate power, you can get a much larger modified sine inverter for much less money. I would try that before I spent a lot of money that may not need to be spent. Do you know anyone with a larger inverter you could talk into letting you borrow it for a while to test it out? That would be my first move. The money saved could buy lots of vinyl.

Charlie

[lueman 19]

In electrical terms wattage is the same where you use 12v*3.4a or 120v*.34a. Just to confuse you some more My laptop PS is rated at 120v @1.5a and it's output to the PC is 19v @3.5A (the rated amperage of the PC ) so a 180watt supply is providing just 66watts to the source. The point is that track runner is just cruising at half it's rated speed, good times.

[sheister 1]

Hello and thanks for the post about power. I am happy to hear about your concerns about the 300 watt pure sine wave inverter being adequate. And I am not disappointed for hearing it. I am glad because it may just save my equip.

Also, you said you had issues with the cutter / pc communicating before. Have you figured out that issue yet?

This only communication problem was when I was hooked up to a modified sine wave inverter.

If you are worried about having adequate power, you can get a much larger modified sine inverter for much less money. I would try that before I spent a lot of money that may not need to be spent. Do you know anyone with a larger inverter you could talk into letting you borrow it for a while to test it out?

To answer this no I haven't. I was hoping somebody here has and would offer their input as to whether it would work or not. After posting my recent results someone posted his estimations as to the power of the inverter and the laptop. It seemed to be well within the limits of my inverter. As well as the draw rating stating that it was consuming only about 155 watts. This is how I went with the assumption that a 300 watt inverter would be enough. An thus also lead me to believe that since the 400 watt inverter I was using seemed to be enough power, the communication problems were due to the power not being a true sine wave. This is well documented in the web . Running some laptops, tv's, and microwaves, ect . have problems with a modified sine wave. Since the cutter needs to communicate very precisely with the cutter I am to assume the power type is the problem and not the amount of power.

But trying a larger inverter is a good suggestion and is something I have been considering. I am holding off on any purchases at the time being but I am bidding on a much larger inverter on Ebay. 1200 watts.  I am only going to make purchase if its a good enough deal. If I end up winning the auction then I guess I will never know if a larger modified sine wave inverter would have worked as 1200 watts either way should be more than adequate. 1200 watts may be even more than my car can produce. Honda Civic 1994.

I live in Florida and suffered the 2004 hurricanes. 4 of them and 3 directly hit my hometown of Orlando. So I feel some but not all, of your pain. Glad you were able to get so much done from your truck. Thing is 2 of the 3 hurricanes I never lost power even though the devistation brought down a tree about 5 feet thick at the base and atleast 50 fee tall. This tree fell right on top of the car right next to mine and from trunk to hood , right down the middle, crushed the cab. I only lost a mirror. The last hurricane I purchased large 5k watt generator and we were the only ones with power on my street for 3 days. We had tv, internet, freezer running and tons of beer. Just partied the whole time.

Thanks again for your informative and helpful posts they are not going ignored.

Regards

Cheizzy

[CyberChuck 4]

    I, too, purchased a larger generator after Gustav. We`were without power for 2 weeks. I lucked out and one of our commercial suppliers let my boss know they had a stash of generators. They let us in before they opened back up to the public (my company built his store for him). So, I ended up buying a 7500W generator. Way too big to carry around (unless I get a trailer), so it stays in the storage room.

      But, once I got it, I disconnected from the power company and tied it into my main bus at the meter - powered all of the 110 circuits in the house (I didn't try running the dryer or other 240 appliances). Keeping the damn thing fueled was a pain, though. But, like you, had plenty of cold beer and was able to get a few tv stations using a powered antenna.  It looked odd when everywhere around was dark and you could see the blue flicker from my tv through the blinds.

Charlie

[sheister 1]

I cant really explain why its fun to survive during a hurricane. Its kind of like camping out in your house or something. Dont get me wrong there are more headaches than anything else but there is some fun too. If that doesnt sound too crazy to say so. Still watching the bidders. Will let you know how things progress.

thanks again

[lueman 19]

Hey Shiester,

  Since your in Orlando check out Skycraft it's just on the Fairbanks exit on I4 , you can't miss it it has a spaceship on the roof. They have lots of electronics and maybe a cheap inverter or at least one at a reasonable price. I lost 9 trees 2 hit the house one in the pool three took out most of my fencing the rest fell towards the sidewalks or the street. Lots of wood for the BBQ,but no cold beer.

[sheister 1]

SKYCRAFT. Oh god bless that place! I sometimes go there with nothing I need but always find things I never knew I needed. Yeah I may checkem out for that. Was kind of wanting to purch a larger inverter and do another test. If it works I will keep it. If not I will return it. So I may need to go to Home Depot or something for that cause I think Skycraft is a bit more strict on returns. Sounds like your in my neck of the woods. You know anybody who knows how to work on generators??. I have 5k watt but let it sit for too long. It runs just fine but I need to put starter fluid to make it run at all. Seems its not able to get fuel. Checked line and filter, they are fine. Seems gas isnt getting into carburetor . Would love to get that working and probably sell it.

Thanks for the suggestion

[CyberChuck 4]

Sounds like the jet may be clogged on the carb. Happened to me with a boat several years ago - I made the mistake of not running out the gas in my boat before storage. You have to copen up the carb and give it a thorough cleaning. It isn't hard if you're handy with a wrench and good at remembering how things go back together. My boat had three carbs tethered together - resyncing them was a pain.

Charlie

[lueman 19]

I'm stricly an electronics/programmer, no grease under my fingernails. Check out my website http://www.caribemb.com/Directions.html, your welcome to come by.

[sheister 1]

Sounds like the jet may be clogged on the carb. Happened to me with a boat several years ago - I made the mistake of not running out the gas in my boat before storage. You have to copen up the carb and give it a thorough cleaning. It isn't hard if you're handy with a wrench and good at remembering how things go back together. My boat had three carbs tethered together - resyncing them was a pain.

Charlie

YUP thats exactly what I did when I let mine sit. I didnt drain the gas. Yeah I checked eveything I could get easy access to and it appears its clean. But somewhere the gas just isnt getting in there. so I will try again and check that out.

[CyberChuck 4]

If it is a typical setup, you shoud be able to see a brass looking bowl attatched to the carb with a long screw going through the center to the carb. Take that off and clean it and all exposed parts with carb cleaner. If you're interested in cleaning it, you can read this article: http://yarchive.net/car/rv/generator_carb_cleaning.html

Charlie