PM-Performance

Question on copyright infringment

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Just curious on this one as this may be a grey area. 

Find an image on google to whatever source for a design to use as a base. 

You vectorize it and change it around to do some customizations to it and perfect it. Still the base image is the same, but lots of point editing and inlaying in knockouts and backgrounds and modifying aspects of it enough that it is deff different but same base. 

If someone does not have this copyrighted, is this a copyright infringement? Or grey area?

Just curious what people here think on this topic of not being a direct copy. 

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Anything that is already created is copyrighted. It does not have to be registered. If you see it, and you didn't create it. It is not yours to use without permission from the owner. Yes, it would be copyright infringement. No amount of changing it makes it your design. . 

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Thanks for the clarification. So if someone doesn't market the image much or make any real money off it and you perfected the design and actually making good on the modified full out designs, you can he held liable for legal action?

 

Lets say its a sihlouette of something. You can only do soo much to a sihlouette to change it and still know what it is, while adding your touches to it to make sure its different?

Ill see if I can post some pics for better understanding. 

 

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As soon as a design is created, it is copyrighted. So why wouldn't you ask the owner, if you could use it? Buy it. split some money, so that your legal? By not asking permission you are being shady.   You can use designs from the Public Domain, because they are expired copyrights. 

 

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1 hour ago, MZ SKEETER said:

As soon as a design is created, it is copyrighted. So why wouldn't you ask the owner, if you could use it? Buy it. split some money? 

 

Because I didnt know who the owner is until today. This image is duplicated all over the web so not clue if the water mark person is the actual inventor. Once confronted, I offered royalty money since this is an untapped market and I am doing more with it than they did because theirs was lacking. 

again, these are replicated all over the web, but atleast I made the effort to make them my own via customizations and doing all the fine points. 

Originals are the watermarked ones I found on google. Shirts are what I did. Again at the time I had no idea it would turn into the level of desire it has for these. I started for myself and just went out of control with orders. Kind of green when i started and I never really thought about it until confronted today. I was nice and offered royalty money, but the person went off the deep end because they aren't making any money off them and I am. 

 

EDIT to be clear: When I did these, it was not off these watermarked designs. I just grabbed these now for example. Some cut files I have bought off Etsy as well and modified. 

 

 

 

 

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Using Mustang in any font related to a car It belongs to Ford.  It is a Ford model.   As well as GT 500 Mustang. as well as the Cobra. As well as the picture of the Mustang, unless you purchased a license to use them.   You would have to purchase a licence from Ford Motor Company. 

Trademark Notice

 

The Ford name, and all trademarks and logos displayed on this Site are owned or used under license by Ford. These trademarks include, but are not limited to, product brand names (e.g., Ford, Lincoln, Motorcraft), vehicle model names (e.g., Mustang, Taurus, Explorer, F-150, Focus, Ranger), slogans (e.g.,Built Ford Tough), and logos and emblems. The unauthorized use of any trademark displayed on this Site is strictly prohibited.

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What, exactly, is your question here?

You were confronted by someone and your solution was to say that you will keep selling the offending products and 'split it with them'? They "went off the deep end"  (how?) and refused to allow you to persist, so what was their indication as to remedy? Lawsuit?

Simple solution -- stop making and marketing these.

As for the "digital alteration" aspect of your post, I refer you to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_"Hope"_poster

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17 minutes ago, MZ SKEETER said:

Using Mustang in any font related to a car It belongs to Ford.  It is a Ford model.   As well as GT 500 Mustang. as well as the Cobra. As well as the picture of the Mustang, unless you purchased a license to use them.   You would have to purchase a licence from Ford Motor Company. 

Correct technically. So maybe we are both in the wrong? How would one even contact Ford to ask if you can type their name or an outline of their car? I would think this is no different than selling and posting pictures of my car all over the internet?

 

Again, when this started I did one for myself as a hobbyist and turned into a thing. 

8 minutes ago, slice&dice said:

What, exactly, is your question here?

You were confronted by someone and your solution was to say that you will keep selling the offending products and 'split it with them'? They "went off the deep end"  (how?) and refused to allow you to persist, so what was their indication as to remedy? Lawsuit?

Simple solution -- stop making and marketing these.

 

I was moreso trying to understand if there is limitation on what I can do as far as still making these styles if the person that contacted me will not take a royalty. I was nice and asked for their company name as well as any info showing they are the owner of the images and offered royalty no questions asked. They got defensive and said I will hear from their attorney. I just said ok, and let me know how to make the situation better, but they got pissy with me. 

I just want to understand how this works if it escalates since alot of these base images for things are all over the internet and people either directly copy, or modify to their liking. I was willing to discuss ways to work through it, but the person was upset and made it into a big thing. So again I was curious how this works so I know if I need to just not sell anything car related, or change more of the design? I mean its a sihlouette of a copy image of something that already exists. I can only change it so much. 

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You have to contact Ford Motor Company,  They have addresses and phone numbers.  These companies have lawyers that just look for this kind of stuff all the time.  Online stores, Fleamarkets, Facebook, Ebay, Gas stations  Sports games and the list goes on. People see them and think they can do it.  It's not a matter of will I get caught, it is when will I get caught.  Stealing and using copyrights/trademarks are such a big business, that Homeland Security is involved, It is considered counterfeiting now.    You can be found so easy.  Reverse Image search. 

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3 minutes ago, MZ SKEETER said:

You have to contact Ford Motor Company,  They have addresses and phone numbers.  These companies have lawyers that just look for this kind of stuff all the time.  People see them and think they can do it.  It's not a matter of will I get caught, it is when will I get caught.  Stealing and using copyrights is such a big business, that Homeland Security is involved, It is considered counterfeiting now.    You can be found so easy.  Reverse Image search. 

interesting. I had no idea. I mean shit. . . . Ford forgot they even made these cars. 

Well I guess that being said if he sends me a cease and desist, I will figure it out. I have messaged him a few times to discuss civil. I just think its stupid to pass on money he never even had for something that was a throw away design that he never made any money off of before. 

 

Thanks for the advise. I guess I will figure out my next steps. 

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early on I did a stripe for my hemi truck with a tribal ram head that was never used by the company- I got a C&D - I questioned it because chevy also made a hemispherical engine.  I was told again to C&D in no uncertain terms - my MIL as the time was an atty with the AG office and I asked her - she said for enough money I might win but the company will make it so expensive for me I will never recoup what I put into it.  I chose to stop at that point.   Getting cocky with a trademark/copyright owner seldom works out good in the long run - some even go looking for infringement thru 3rd parties like Harley -

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24 minutes ago, Dakotagrafx said:

early on I did a stripe for my hemi truck with a tribal ram head that was never used by the company- I got a C&D - I questioned it because chevy also made a hemispherical engine.  I was told again to C&D in no uncertain terms - my MIL as the time was an atty with the AG office and I asked her - she said for enough money I might win but the company will make it so expensive for me I will never recoup what I put into it.  I chose to stop at that point.   Getting cocky with a trademark/copyright owner seldom works out good in the long run - some even go looking for infringement thru 3rd parties like Harley -

So the thing is, he is just a guy who made some sihlouettes. Not like he is a company or anything. Again this stuff was avail on the internet easily. Looking back at messages now, a few years ago he messaged me and made me one of these designs over DM on facebook as a freebie. I never realized that was the guy and thought he just ripped the image off google and adjusted to my car. For all I know, he did. He never even said he made these. Just messaged me and made me a sihlouette of my car and never asked for money. 

Because when I tried to get more info to confirm he is indeed the owner of the design to throw him some royalty money he wouldnt answer any info. 

I think I went out of my way to show I had no ill meaning behind this. Dont market them or post them for sell anywhere. People know I have made some on facebook groups and reach out to me for them because I am active in the community. I do not sell any public places. Hell if I did, I might actually make some money with them. 

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You also, cannot take pictures of a trademarked item and sell them.   

A trademark gives its owner the exclusive right to use certain words, slogans, or images in commerce as a signifier of the source of goods. Trademarks are often registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, conferring nationwide protection.

A trademark owner would not be happy with the idea that an unaffiliated person is selling calendars, T-shirts, or other products with its trademark. In other words, the mere fact that you photograph a trademark does not necessarily give you the right to take that image and reproduce it. This is particularly true if you intend to sell the items onto which you reproduce the image.

Using a trademark is asking for legal trouble, particularly if the trademark is owned by a major company that is likely to police and enforce its mark.

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4 minutes ago, MZ SKEETER said:

You also, cannot take pictures of a trademarked item and sell them.   

A trademark gives its owner the exclusive right to use certain words, slogans, or images in commerce as a signifier of the source of goods. Trademarks are often registered with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, conferring nationwide protection.

A trademark owner would not be happy with the idea that an unaffiliated person is selling calendars, T-shirts, or other products with its trademark. In other words, the mere fact that you photograph a trademark does not necessarily give you the right to take that image and reproduce it. This is particularly true if you intend to sell the items onto which you reproduce the image.

Using a trademark is asking for legal trouble, particularly if the trademark is owned by a major company that is likely to police and enforce its mark.

So the SVG files i Bought on Etsy are technically illegal then? Man, everyone is gonna go down

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I don't know what you bought.  It depends on what it is. Places like Vectorstock and a lot of online places sell the right to "use" the design, but you don't own the design. Some are sold personal use, some commercial use.   You can go to sites like Brands of the World, which have many, trademarks and logos that you can download, BUT you only have the right to use them if you have permission from the company that they belong to. The owners.   Just like on Ebay and a lot of other places which sell dvds with 800,000 logos.  You don't have the right to use them without permission from each owner. 

Best to create your own original designs or buy the use of one from a legal  business.   People try and make a buck anywhere from people who don't do their homework.  Inkscape.org is sold on discs all the time, and it is a FREE download. 

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I wonder how that could work. If you were to make it clear the software is free to download and you are simply providing physical media that contains said software would that be legal. ???

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37 minutes ago, darcshadow said:

I wonder how that could work. If you were to make it clear the software is free to download and you are simply providing physical media that contains said software would that be legal. ???

after an artist dies are you legally able to sell copies of their artwork?  can I sell copies of singers songs after they die?  

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Copyrights indeed extend 70 years beyond the lifespan of the creator (the copyright is retained by the Estate of the deceased).
The length of copyright protection may even be longer, if the job was a "work for hire", then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter.

In the case of ColorChrome (Jerry Bonham's company) there is no longer anyone representing his interests regarding this commercial software. It is considered 'abandonware' --- 

(Oh, by the way, for that eBay offer of SignBlazerElements, it's not provided on a disk -- despite the listing illustration showing a CD)

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2 minutes ago, slice&dice said:

Copyrights indeed extend 70 years beyond the lifespan of the creator (the copyright is retained by the Estate of the deceased).
The length of copyright protection may even be longer, if the job was a "work for hire", then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter.

In the case of ColorChrome (Jerry Bonham's company) there is no longer anyone representing his interests regarding this commercial software. It is considered 'abandonware' --- 

(Oh, by the way, for that eBay offer of SignBlazerElements, it's not provided on a disk -- despite the listing illustration showing a CD)

does he have any heirs, descendants, does that mean NO One has a legal claim to his work - if we go there and ask lawyers it could very well be taken off the server here.
sometimes you don't ask the question you don't want the answer to    something I learned at the prison

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The seller is violating EBay rules and no one has reported them.  You are not allowed to sell downloads, only under certain categories.  The seller is not doing that. Also other pirated software  Flexisign 10. (legal has a USB dongle) The seller is a scammer. Read the negs.  Main picture should be what a buyer would receive.  

download.jpg

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I suspect that Jerry (now in heaven) is OK with his creation still being utilized and appreciated.
http://forum.uscutter.com/index.php?/topic/4186-jerry-bonham

The main lesson here regarding copyrights ----  The car designs aren't something you made from scratch, but rather,  you've done "derivative work"
Under §106(2) of the Copyright Act, the copyright owner has the exclusive right to prepare and authorize others to prepare derivative works based on the copyrighted work.

And then we have a subset of that doctrine, called "Transformative works" which make use of copyrighted material, but do so in a way that the resulting work is itself fully copyrightable.
https://foundrylawgroup.com/copyright-copywrong-what-are-derivative-and-transformative-works/

 

 

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The grey area of possibilities is mind boggling. 

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Which is why copyright lawyers are EXTREMELY well-paid.

For anyone who wants to read a classic story of copyright/trademark gone mad, there is the example of NISSAN.
 

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On 8/10/2020 at 3:06 PM, PM-Performance said:

So the SVG files i Bought on Etsy are technically illegal then? Man, everyone is gonna go down

If your svg files come with a license then you at least have a layer of protection in case something goes awry and other than potentially having to stop selling something you have a bunch of inventory of you will just get a C&D letter and be forced to stop until it's decided in court (court assuming you want to keep going). I have bought several designs when I didn't have time to make them myself and I just adhere to the license that came with them. If this guy contacted YOU and has demanded you cease and desist you probably better listen unless you want to be sued. They DO have to sue you though but they will likely win if you unlawfully obtained the design or were "inspired by" their work which is part of the wordage and if they have more money than you do to pay attorneys. 

I have a really sweet spoof design on Harley logo that says Hardly instead of Harley and I was going to market it. Before I did so I decided to contact HD to be sure I didn't get myself into a pinch knowing that they aggressively prosecute. They told me to pound sand and see you in court in no uncertain terms. I have a very good friend who is an attorney who said I could definitely claim Fair Use because it's absolutely the exact scenario that Fair Use was created for and that I would definitely have a good case based on that. The Point he was making was that I would be in court over it fighting with a multi million dollar company so was it worth the risk and could I pay for attorneys and courts for the next 5 years? How many decals or tee shirts could I foresee selling? Yea, no thanks, I'll keep my house. I dropped it. Had one copy I had originally made for a Yamaha rat rod I had built that I left on the fender (it had gotten a lot of comments and snickers by HD owners). That was the end of that idea and with it my claim to fame. 

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