MichaelScott

Advice regarding software and maybe hardware

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What I do: 

I design pieces to be cut on a high-end laser, as a hobby.  During the weekend I design, and then during break times at work, I'm permitted to run the parts on their 6KW laser. I have to do all my finishing at home, and I want to start etching my parts too.. using vinyl resists for that, seems like the way to go.  I'm not going to share the accompanying sob story, but suffice it to say money is suddenly tight, and I'm looking for long term ways to loosen it a bit. 

I'm inches away from pulling the trigger on a Titan 2 or SC, but I'm trying to figure-out the workflow, and trying to select software that will permit me to grow, and possibly permit me to do all my vector work on it..  If I buy the SC, I want to be sure it'll handle a Titan2 too. 

My hardware needs:   

First, I want to create vinyl resists for electric etching on Stainless Steel.  My understanding is that it doesn't have to be "great quality" just stick to the metal.  It needs to block the charged chemicals from touching the metal in some places, while I rub my magic wand on the exposed metal material, and afterwards, the vinyl is garbage, or possibly reusable?  I don't need contouring as I'm not printing on vinyl.  In fact, at one point I was looking into cricuts, but was referred to US Cutter MH's as being more reliable and robust, plus I wanted at least the option for a larger size.  
   
Next, I'd like to see what sort of other possible uses I might have for vinyl (car decals, etc) to consider a third income source from it.  I'm guessing the Outdoor vinyl sold here, is needed for cars?  I'm not very clear on that, as I've seen a lot of options, and aside from UV protection, I assume there's something about how it needs to bond with the surface to stop it from peeling while you're driving. Also wondering about using layered colors on cars too (I do it with stainless).  Can I cut the stuff for cars with the SC, or is it too thick, or something?    I'm interested in any links you folks have found to be useful on the topic of cutting for cars (not wraps, just decals and stuff).  

Noise considerations have me leaning towards the TItan2, because it'll be in my apartment, but my lack of experience suggests that might be "too much machine" in terms of learning the ropes, etc, and the price is certainly scarier.  My intent is not mass production, or retail environment.. just the occasional Etsy/Ebay sort of thing, maybe a flea market visit every few months, don't know yet.  I do know that it'll only be run on my days off, so not a lot of constant activity.


Software issue:

The laser uses a CAD/CAM program called Radan, and the only thing it will accept for part files, seems to be DXF, DWG, (or it's own SYM file format).  (It also permits direct import from SolidEdge assemblies when they're loaded in SolidEdge, but it's really just changing the parts to DXF, and then saving them as SYM files).  

Currently, I design in AutoCad, because I was raised on it (using it for work, since self-taught on version 2, back in 1986).   AutoCAD will export to PDF as noted previously in this thread, but it's "bread and butter" is DXF and DWG files.  It's brutally expensive now, and I just can't justify the price on it anymore, but it has nice features, like "exploding" fonts into vectors, and the entire dimensioning system, plus my familiarity with it, etc. 

I also use Inkscape as a basic user, and it will let me convert EPS, SVG, or AI, etc, etc, to DXF.  I also use it to vectorize raster files that I create with an old copy of PaintShop Pro.  There's a lot of clean-up duty to weed those resultant DXF's though.  ("weed" in this respect is node reduction).  If I don't do it properly, and take the time to spend hours on it in AutoCAD, those files stop at every line endpoint during cutting, and it takes FOREVER for the laser to cut them. 

I want to find a replacement program, that covers my need for DXF, and the vectorizing, and I really like the looks of Drawmaster, but the price for a version that will import/export DXF (and DWG?) files is a little daunting.  (you need the 2nd from the best version, apparently, the DSR version).

Sign Pro looks promising, but I'm having trouble determining from their "supported cutters" list whether it would run a Titan.  (Even if I got the SC, I want the option open to switch to the Titan without reinvesting the time in a new program).  I stopped looking at it when I saw Titan seemed to be unsupported.


Any other programs you guys can suggest that will handle both, an SC and a Titan 2, which will let me take AutoCAD out of the loop here, and hopefully produce DXF files I can laser cut, from the various downloadable vector formats (SVG, AI, etc), and from built-in artwork/design studio, plus "auto-vectorization" AND just straight-up tracing over rasters by hand.  I'm also interested in the software being something that's well-supported in terms of tutorials/training/etc.

Also, if I buy a cutter with a bundled DrawMaster Cut program, will it come with a PSN so I can upgrade that version to the DSR version (paid over 6 months)? or do I need to upgrade beyond that basic version at checkout time to get the PSN?   I see the program upgrades available with the cutters, but I'm noticing neither the Titan2 or SC even offered the DSR version.. is that because they aren't supported by that version?

Thanks very much for reading this far.

 

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Lots to digest there, and it boils down to basically one question ---

What is your budget? I would try to go with at least the LP3.

The SC2 (or LP3) will arrive with VinylMasterCUT included to run it. That program will allow export in .eps format.
VinylMaster has a built-in vector engine that traces very well.
Yes, then use Inkscape to convert EPS to DXF.
Five mouse clicks and you're all set.

 

 

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Stay away from the MH vinyl cutter, too many problems.  Bottom of the barrel cutter.   A servo Titan 2 is always better than a value cutter and it has true USB.  Always buy the best you can afford.   Also the Titan is a rebranded Saga brand vinyl cutter. Look that up on Signcut.   Most regular vinyl can be cut on any vinyl cutter.  Vinyl is only about 2.5-3 mil thick.  Which is very thin. 

VinylMaster.com also has their own website and sells their software there.  On their site all of the cutters are featured on their software.  There is a UScutter version that comes with the vinyl cutters on UScutter, and there is the full Vinyl Master version for all vinyl cutters. 

Vinylmaster.com 

Here is the UScutter buying guide. You can see the purpose of each cutter. As with vinyl cutters each upgrade is a better vinyl cutter. 

https://www.uscutter.com/index/page/static/subpage/buying_guides_new

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USCUTTER has released newer versions/upgraded models of both the LP and SC, maybe it's time for the company to introduce an improved MH machine?

108-1.jpg

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If you have Inkscape already I'd say dig into it more. It can pretty much do all that you need. The only downside to inkscape, and pretty much any vector design program in comparison to programs like AutoCad is most vector design programs don't deal with exact measurements when drawing lines like cad programs do.

You said autocad can "explode" fonts into vectors, most vector programs do that. In Inkscape, it's called "Object to Path" it's under the Patch menu. When designing in any vector program, it's also a good idea to switch to wireframe/outline view occasionally to double check your design will cut like you think it will.

I have not checked, but I believe the two cutters you're looking at use the HPGL language for control, so virtually any cutting program can be made to work with them. Inkscape could even be used to cut designs with them. The advantage of having the cutter in question "supported" by a cutting program is that the default values for things like steps per inch are set for the cutter in question, although some fine tuning may still be necessary.

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I agree with the others. Mainly avoid the MH as it is the most likely to give you problems. 

The Vinyl Master Cut program that you will get with your cutter will interface with your cutter as well as provide some limited design options. You can always pay to upgrade that if you decide you want to. In the meantime using Inkscape for free is the way to go since you already know your way around it to some degree. Then just export to VM and your cutting. This isn't going to solve your CAD node edit problem but as far as the cutter goes you'll be fine. I'll have to look but I think VM will probably import a DXF file. Lots of software will, sometimes there are quirks. 

To make a buck consider purchasing a heat press and make t-shirts. There are only so many people who need a vinyl graphic on their car or truck but everyone and all their kids need shirts. It's also really easy to advertise on your own body or give a few handouts and you'll soon find a loyal following. 

I have a plug-in for CS5 Illustrator called Concatenate that connects all those broken dxf lines. I don't know but possibly there is someone out there that has created one for Inkscape. I bought mine to do some artwork conversions for a plasma table guy and it saved a lot of time for me. 

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13 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

Currently, I design in AutoCad, because I was raised on it (using it for work, since self-taught on version 2, back in 1986).   AutoCAD will export to PDF as noted previously in this thread, but it's "bread and butter" is DXF and DWG files.  It's brutally expensive now, and I just can't justify the price on it anymore, but it has nice features, like "exploding" fonts into vectors, and the entire dimensioning system, plus my familiarity with it, etc.

Awesome! I started in AutoCAD with v.3, about a year after you. Not worry - you won't need CAD or anything nearly as pricey to design and cut. As others have stated, some models of cutters already come with their own software. For those that don't, there's Sign Blazer Elements - it's a bit antiquated, but it gets the job done (AutoCAD exploding and all). You can give it a test drive now, it's totally free. The original creator of the software passed away some time ago, but the software is still works, even on some of the new machines.

Get the best machine your budget will allow. Word of mouth business spread pretty fast, and if there's a bundle for a free heat press, that's another revenue stream for you.

I haven't tried to chemical etch metal, so I cannot speak to what kind of vinyl would be necessary to get the job done. Perhaps if you troll YouTube, there might be a few posts there.

Good luck!

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I can't speak to etching steel but I do know the process to etch copper works well with vinyl. I used vinyl to create a circuit board and it came out great.

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Thanks to you all..  Still need further research on this stuff, but I appreciate what I've seen here.  I'll come back and reply better later tonight, just wanted you all to know it's appreciated! 

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Mz Skeeter - Thanks, I'm headed towards the TItan 2, I think. I'm definitely skipping the MH like you suggested,  and at least going to shoot for the Titan1, depending upon budget .   My only real concern about it was looking through the Titan sub-forum, and seeing issues arise that scare the heck out of me.  I'm seeing you mention that it's best to buy the highest you can afford, all over the forum, and in looking through things, I'm in full agreement with that.  I was just worried that as a newbie to vinyl, based on the the Titan forum, the Titans might be a bit much to handle.  I'm somewhat relieved that I saw you mentioning the documentation that comes with it (and the with the software)..  If there's a comprehensive help file, I'll be fine, as long as it's not expecting me to fully know the jargon ahead of time.  

I've seen the "upgrade software" available for Vinyl Master, but I just want to be certain that I can later upgrade to the DSR version (since it's not offered with the machine as an upgrade).  It seems like I can, provided I have a PSN number, but that assumes two things..  The base program that comes with the machine HAS a PSN, and the DSR version is still compatible with the Titan.  That allows me to buy the best machine I can,. and then do the software when I can afford to, and dropping the autocad payments, ASAP..  Apparently, VM won't do the DXF I need unless I get to the DSR level though. 

Slice-n-Dice - I don't have a great budget at the moment..  but if I have to wait to afford the Titan, I will.  Hopefully, my tax return will help. 
Good call on the EPS export and relying on Inkscape to get to DXF, appreciate the insight!    

DarcShadow - I'm considering going after "Draftsight" to handle my precision dxf needs.   Good to know about the Font handling abilities.. I actually had to go after the full AutoCAD version to handle that, instead of the MUCH MUCH cheaper AutoCAD LT version, because LT doesn't have it.
Inkscape..  I know there's a lot of untapped potential there.  I was going to take some online courses for it and stuff.. the learning curve seems awkward without actual instruction, due to the jargon throwing me off, and my raster experience level being much higher than my vector.. well, non-precision vector anyway, or non-coordinate, non-measurement, with fills,strokes and paths, instead of lines, angles and curves... whatever that's officially called.  
However.. I suspect VM "training" is going to be the thing I should focus on.. and leave my inkscape abilities at rudimentary level for now.
Thanks for the tip on vinyl working with copper etching.. it's roughly the same process to do steel.. and now, of course I'm thinking about the CB's I was going to get prototyped last year, just before my gf was diagnosed with MS of the brain and money stopped being spent on anything that couldn't produce "foolproof" revenue of some sort. 

WildGoose - Thanks for the tip on Concatenate.. (good name, considering what the command does in Excel!)  Illustrator has been haunting me for awhile now.  I keep trying to buy their last stand-alone version at an affordable price, but it seems like a nightmare of hacked copies, or hacked serial numbers, or serial numbers that straight up fail. During my research I discovered a ton of scams.
If inkscape does have a plug-in like that, I'll find it.. I'm certainly going to look!
T-shirts.. that's been a distracting notion ever since I read your post earlier.  I'm getting the vinyl cutter to do resists for my stainless, so signs seemed like a natural progression, but now that (announced this evening) the president of the company (which owns the laser) is retiring, there might be a shake-up that stops me from being able to use it.  If I had a shirt thing already in-place at that point, it could possibly save my bacon..  I can't ignore it, but my GF will likely be furious with me.. I have some sort of passion for just about everything; a jackass of all trades, master of none.

Haumana - Thanks for the tips, and yeah, I've been a youtube-training junky for awhile now.. THAT and there's step by step instructions on "Instructables" for it, too.

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Well kudos for taking the time to do your research. A lot don't and are then unhappy with the choices they made. There are a lot of things you won't even know the questions to but it's not really as complicated as it seems. Three elements comprise most of the work. #1 Design, #2 Cutter knowledge, #3 Installation

#1 I think you will tackle with ease. You are feeling nervous about it but your background in cad tells me your mind has a total grasp of vector technology just needing to accept a different way of looking at them. 

#2 If you any kind of patience you can work through the problems that will arise and there will invariable be something. Usually it's a computer connection glitch or one of the cutter settings that needs tweaked. Once you get it all dialed in it goes pretty smooth from there. This is where the quality of the cutter makes a difference in the level of potential frustration. Cheaper budget cutters can still do just fine through and WILL teach you some things that a high end cutter may not. What I mean is that a high end cutter will usually chug along without a hitch whereas a budget model may off track or be much more touchy about the pressure and speed settings. I learned on what was roughly the equivalent of the SC2 and it served me fine for a couple years. Once I broke out into the production market I then needed a machine that could product many copies with ease and it was also easy to justify the expense because the money was already coming in. 

#3 Depending on WHAT you are applying it can be very easy or in cases like vinyl on cars it can be a long process to achieve a level of competence. 

#4 I forgot one. Once you are comfy with what you are doing and assuming you desire a revenue stream you will have to develop some salesmanship if you don't already posses that. My wife says I'm a crack dealer because I tend to give out a free hat, decals or a free tee shirt to people and they soon come back for more. The guy that had me letter his truck got a free tee shirt with his logo and now I sell him thousands of dollars worth every year. He spent a couple hundred on the truck and that was 5 years ago. You can see the revenue difference. Be smart about it and consider the tax implications as well. 

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Also I am pretty sure that VM Pro is supposed to be able to export a DXF. Might be worth calling their tech support and talking to them about it. Pro will be more affordable than DSR and have all the capabilities that you would need for a cutter. 

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6 hours ago, Wildgoose said:

Well kudos for taking the time to do your research. A lot don't and are then unhappy with the choices they made. There are a lot of things you won't even know the questions to but it's not really as complicated as it seems. Three elements comprise most of the work. #1 Design, #2 Cutter knowledge, #3 Installation

#1 I think you will tackle with ease. You are feeling nervous about it but your background in cad tells me your mind has a total grasp of vector technology just needing to accept a different way of looking at them. 

#2 If you any kind of patience you can work through the problems that will arise and there will invariable be something. Usually it's a computer connection glitch or one of the cutter settings that needs tweaked. Once you get it all dialed in it goes pretty smooth from there. This is where the quality of the cutter makes a difference in the level of potential frustration. Cheaper budget cutters can still do just fine through and WILL teach you some things that a high end cutter may not. What I mean is that a high end cutter will usually chug along without a hitch whereas a budget model may off track or be much more touchy about the pressure and speed settings. I learned on what was roughly the equivalent of the SC2 and it served me fine for a couple years. Once I broke out into the production market I then needed a machine that could product many copies with ease and it was also easy to justify the expense because the money was already coming in. 

#3 Depending on WHAT you are applying it can be very easy or in cases like vinyl on cars it can be a long process to achieve a level of competence. 

#4 I forgot one. Once you are comfy with what you are doing and assuming you desire a revenue stream you will have to develop some salesmanship if you don't already posses that. My wife says I'm a crack dealer because I tend to give out a free hat, decals or a free tee shirt to people and they soon come back for more. The guy that had me letter his truck got a free tee shirt with his logo and now I sell him thousands of dollars worth every year. He spent a couple hundred on the truck and that was 5 years ago. You can see the revenue difference. Be smart about it and consider the tax implications as well. 

Very reassuring :)  Thanks!

Yeah, I'm already failing miserably at doing sales of the stainless I cut.  There are two people that are selling for me at commission, it sort of sucks, because I'm selling pieces that I see priced at $68 for like $25 to $35, of which I see like $15..  I do okay on the commission pieces, but they're still really cheap, like $50 for stuff that should be much more than that.  Confidence thing or something, I don't know, I attract cheap folks who wouldn't buy at all if it isn't dirt cheap, so after settling for NO money/no sales, I opted to go really low.  I suppose I should be researching that a bit more.

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14 minutes ago, Wildgoose said:

Also I am pretty sure that VM Pro is supposed to be able to export a DXF. Might be worth calling their tech support and talking to them about it. Pro will be more affordable than DSR and have all the capabilities that you would need for a cutter. 

That'd be nice, and yeah, I should call them, I just sort of feeling like I'm getting a "default" program with VM, and would like a better feel for alternatives that are working for you folks.

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Haven't read all the other replies but here's my thoughts, at least on the cutter.  I recently bought an SC2.  While I'm sure it's screaming loud compared to a servo unit, I don't think it's all that bad and is quieter than I expected.  If you go by the specs on the USCutter website for the SC2 and the LP3, they both have .005 inch (.127mm) resolution and they're both steppers.  Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any advantage to the LP3 accuracy wise.  And the price of the SC2 right now at $339 is a great deal as well.

 

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2 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

Very reassuring :)  Thanks!

Yeah, I'm already failing miserably at doing sales of the stainless I cut.  There are two people that are selling for me at commission, it sort of sucks, because I'm selling pieces that I see priced at $68 for like $25 to $35, of which I see like $15..  I do okay on the commission pieces, but they're still really cheap, like $50 for stuff that should be much more than that.  Confidence thing or something, I don't know, I attract cheap folks who wouldn't buy at all if it isn't dirt cheap, so after settling for NO money/no sales, I opted to go really low.  I suppose I should be researching that a bit more.

Sometimes you have to actually raise your prices to hit a different dynamic of people or offer more unique options that others aren't in order to command a higher price. I generally do a little under cover research and figure out what people are doing and what it's selling for. When I started out I figured I would make my millions on 48" x 96" property for sale signs. Then I did a price check and found that a couple of the really large local sign shops have flatbed printers and will print a multi-colored sheet for $190 out the door. By the time I buy the signboard and mess around with anything other than very simple graphics there's no money left to be made except the install and I don't really like digging post holes. I also have a day job that prevents me from being out there doing installs by day so I went other directions and found other markets that weren't so cut throat. 

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5 hours ago, Wildgoose said:

Also I am pretty sure that VM Pro is supposed to be able to export a DXF. Might be worth calling their tech support and talking to them about it. Pro will be more affordable than DSR and have all the capabilities that you would need for a cutter. 

VM DSR will export to DXF

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2 hours ago, MZ SKEETER said:

You can download demo versions of Vinyl Master, right from their site. 

yeah, thanks, I saw that.  I'll be checking it out this weekend.

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6 hours ago, Wilson said:

Haven't read all the other replies but here's my thoughts, at least on the cutter.  I recently bought an SC2.  While I'm sure it's screaming loud compared to a servo unit, I don't think it's all that bad and is quieter than I expected.  If you go by the specs on the USCutter website for the SC2 and the LP3, they both have .005 inch (.127mm) resolution and they're both steppers.  Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any advantage to the LP3 accuracy wise.  And the price of the SC2 right now at $339 is a great deal as well.

 

Thanks, very logical.  My budget may push me there, we'll see.  good to know it's bearably loud at least. 

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4 hours ago, Wildgoose said:

Sometimes you have to actually raise your prices to hit a different dynamic of people or offer more unique options that others aren't in order to command a higher price. I generally do a little under cover research and figure out what people are doing and what it's selling for. When I started out I figured I would make my millions on 48" x 96" property for sale signs. Then I did a price check and found that a couple of the really large local sign shops have flatbed printers and will print a multi-colored sheet for $190 out the door. By the time I buy the signboard and mess around with anything other than very simple graphics there's no money left to be made except the install and I don't really like digging post holes. I also have a day job that prevents me from being out there doing installs by day so I went other directions and found other markets that weren't so cut throat. 

It's weird, I'm sort of in a unique position, where I can offer the exact same products as my competitors, but only in a medium that they offer as "high end", and yet I can't seem to sell stuff at even half the price of their low end versions. My overhead will never be this low when I go out on my own, but I'm only able to make pocket change. 

Part of that has to be attributed to lack of advertising and no online store, but even still, it's sort of strange. I had a skull I did, and put it into some skull forums, asking how much I should be charging for it. I hadn't refinished the skull, it was raw, and so I wasn't going to start selling until I could do the refinishing.   Out of all the replies, the average worked to be about $45, which was probably a good discount price. I was set over 60 messages specifically stating they wanted to buy it for that price when it was ready.  I refinished the 20 I had, and then I offered it for sale at $35. but got no response at all.  A month later, I repriced at $20, but still crickets.  I dropped to $15, including shipping, just to recoup some of what I'd spent on the ones I'd made, so I could move onto other designs.  Nothing at all.  I never sold a single one.

You're right about raising the price to attract a different dynamic; I've seen it happen, but I just don't seem to be able to pull that off.  I recently upgraded my finishing abilities, and with that, I'm going to advertise, and try to get something going.  I was hoping to add the etching as part of the actual launch.

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2 hours ago, haumana said:

VM DSR will export to DXF

I have VM Pro and in the export options it has DXF in the Vector options list. Now when I exported the test file I was messing with and tried to import it into the older CS2 illustrator program I have on that same computer (pc computer at my day job) it just came through as a text string so I probably did something wrong on the export I assume but I am not sure.

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1 hour ago, MichaelScott said:

It's weird, I'm sort of in a unique position, where I can offer the exact same products as my competitors, but only in a medium that they offer as "high end", and yet I can't seem to sell stuff at even half the price of their low end versions. My overhead will never be this low when I go out on my own, but I'm only able to make pocket change. 

Part of that has to be attributed to lack of advertising and no online store, but even still, it's sort of strange. I had a skull I did, and put it into some skull forums, asking how much I should be charging for it. I hadn't refinished the skull, it was raw, and so I wasn't going to start selling until I could do the refinishing.   Out of all the replies, the average worked to be about $45, which was probably a good discount price. I was set over 60 messages specifically stating they wanted to buy it for that price when it was ready.  I refinished the 20 I had, and then I offered it for sale at $35. but got no response at all.  A month later, I repriced at $20, but still crickets.  I dropped to $15, including shipping, just to recoup some of what I'd spent on the ones I'd made, so I could move onto other designs.  Nothing at all.  I never sold a single one.

You're right about raising the price to attract a different dynamic; I've seen it happen, but I just don't seem to be able to pull that off.  I recently upgraded my finishing abilities, and with that, I'm going to advertise, and try to get something going.  I was hoping to add the etching as part of the actual launch.

I set my prices and I don't care what others sell at.  My service and quality speaks for it's self.  Actually to me, cheap prices speak cheap work in this business. This is considered a skilled job, and you should not be selling cheap.  "Skill" and quality have a price tag on it.   Also the fact that I sell over 1500 items gives my buyers a variety to choose from.  As well as you need product for impulse buyers.  I only sell online. 

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