Application fluid, my first customer, an embarrasing experience, a total failure.

[purplecuts 0]

So I used application fluid for the first time in front of my first ever customer. I used oracal 651 and some german application fluid. The vinyl didn't stick at all, I had to tell my customer that something is wrong and that I will be back. I was so embarrassed and have lost all my confidence. I dont know what to do, I tried it at home now and it doesnt stick here either. What am I doing wrong? 

[arty-rc 719]

First off, are you using clear tape or paper transfer tape? Did you squeegee the heck out of it and did you allow enough time for the app fluid to evaporate? more facts needed/

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2 hours ago, arty-rc said:

First off, are you using clear tape or paper transfer tape? Did you squeegee the heck out of it and did you allow enough time for the app fluid to evaporate? more facts needed/

I am using paper, I have two types, One is Oracal MT 72, and the other is something called Master Premium High Tack. I dont know why, but for some reason it is easier to remove the hight tack one from the window without pulling the vinyl with it, with Oracal it is IMPOSSIBLE. 

Yes I squeegee like crazy. Up/Down, Left Right and all the edges with force. I practiced at home again and found out that if I use only a tiny bit of application fluid (less than one spray) then it is sometimes possible to remove the application tape without pulling the vinyl with it. But it doesnt work on every part of the graphic, it will pull some of the corners no matter what I do. 

I have tried pulling off right away, spraying application fluid over the tape to weaken it, leaving it for 10 min, 30 min and an hour

Im so frustrated, I have to go back tomorrow and do it right this time but I dont know how

[Wildgoose 4,200]

Is this on a simple flat piece of glass? Do it dry. I almost never use app fluid. Too time consuming.

Not sure what "some german" means but you could have some crappy stuff messing with you. When I do use fluid I use action tac or Splash. The key is a light shot and then squeegee all if it out from under the vinyl and let it sit about 5 minutes untouched so the adhesive can get a grip. Then give the top of the tape a shot to soak into the app tape and start pulling it off at a severe angle. I typically fold it back on itself and side it off. Yes there will be spots that don't stay down so it often doesn't work all that well with thin graphics. 

In the time it takes to mess around with fluid and then clean up the mess a dry application is over and gone. Warning: You need to practice dry app if your customer is going to be hovering over your shoulder. Clear concise squeegee control is the key to avoiding bubbles and rills. Use some form of a tape hinge either top bottom, side or center. 

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10 minutes ago, Wildgoose said:

Is this on a simple flat piece of glass? Do it dry. I almost never use app fluid. Too time consuming.

Not sure what "some german" means but you could have some crappy stuff messing with you. When I do use fluid I use action tac or Splash. The key is a light shot and then squeegee all if it out from under the vinyl and let it sit about 5 minutes untouched so the adhesive can get a grip. Then give the top of the tape a shot to soak into the app tape and start pulling it off at a severe angle. I typically fold it back on itself and side it off. Yes there will be spots that don't stay down so it often doesn't work all that well with thin graphics. 

In the time it takes to mess around with fluid and then clean up the mess a dry application is over and gone. Warning: You need to practice dry app if your customer is going to be hovering over your shoulder. Clear concise squeegee control is the key to avoiding bubbles and rills. Use some form of a tape hinge either top bottom, side or center. 

Yes its on a simple flat piece of glass, a normal store window.

The name of the application fluid is Stema Folien - Beschichtung. I do exactly what you recommend, except for at the start when I used to almost shower it with application fluid. I changed my app tape and use a tiny splash of app fluid now. At least it is possible to pull the tape out without the graphic coming with it but still its very hard and stressful. I have to  be very cautious, one small error and the vinyl comes off. I would do it dry if I could butI can't. I have tried several times but I end up making bubbles. 

 

Im going to be so stressed out tomorrow, I have no idea if Ill be able to fix it, its so embarrassing man, I lost all my confidence. 

[xpaperman 719]

another tip.... make sure you clean the glass first!  Real good.  You want to make sure there is no "film" or dirt of any kind on the glass that you cant see.  I use my app fluid for this but I also make my own fluid.  I use water, alcohol and some dish soap.  The mixer helps clean the glass properly before application and works great during application.  

Make sure the glass is clean so the vinyl actually can adhere well to the glass!

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48 minutes ago, xpaperman said:

another tip.... make sure you clean the glass first!  Real good.  You want to make sure there is no "film" or dirt of any kind on the glass that you cant see.  I use my app fluid for this but I also make my own fluid.  I use water, alcohol and some dish soap.  The mixer helps clean the glass properly before application and works great during application.  

Make sure the glass is clean so the vinyl actually can adhere well to the glass!

Thats what I did, I used isopropyl alcohol and cif to clean the window, didnt stick, then I did the same but switched cif with the application fluid, didn't stick this time either 

[Primal Decals 621]

20 minutes ago, purplecuts said:

Thats what I did, I used isopropyl alcohol and cif to clean the window, didnt stick, then I did the same but switched cif with the application fluid, didn't stick this time either 

Also make sure you use like a dollar store or cheap paper towel brand. I came across a issue using a name brand paper towel and it left a oil residue which caused a problem like that., i switched to a dollar store or similar brand and it never happened again. Only try Rubbing Alcohol to clean the surface. Im not sure what CIF is , But i only use the Alcohol on every job with zero issues.  Oh what time of day did you attempt this and was it hot,warm or cold ,or freezing ?  Where you located?

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3 hours ago, Primal Decals said:

Also make sure you use like a dollar store or cheap paper towel brand. I came across a issue using a name brand paper towel and it left a oil residue which caused a problem like that., i switched to a dollar store or similar brand and it never happened again. Only try Rubbing Alcohol to clean the surface. Im not sure what CIF is , But i only use the Alcohol on every job with zero issues.  Oh what time of day did you attempt this and was it hot,warm or cold ,or freezing ?  Where you located?

cif is a window cleaner just like ajax. Im located in sweden, It was 10-12 celsius degrees, fair weather, I tried doing it from 1 pm to 4 pm then I gave up. I use something called yello dusty as a paper towel. Btw, when I use alcohol to clean the window it creates some weird foggy effect on the window, feels very weird to touch. Is this normal?

[Wildgoose 4,200]

Sorry for your frustration but I must say that attempting a paid job with obviously next to no experience is not a good business model. I spent several months (yes months) doing free work for friends and family including walls, cars and a utility trailer all for free just to learn before I ever entertained approaching someone to do a commercial job. I probably spent $400 in materials on these trial runs but chalked it up as educational expenses. A couple of them I had to do over because I screwed them up. 

Don't know what kind of alcohol you are using but it should feel squeaky clean when it's ready. I use regular rubbing alcohol in the 91% variety. I do a pre-clean with denatured alcohol like you burn in alcohol stoves diluted heavily in water. 

Bubbles come from poor squeegee technique. An occasional bubble can be popped and it will never be seen. 

[Wildgoose 4,200]

Here is a link to a great bunch of info that might help you. 

 

[Primal Decals 621]

4 hours ago, purplecuts said:

cif is a window cleaner just like ajax. Im located in sweden, It was 10-12 celsius degrees, fair weather, I tried doing it from 1 pm to 4 pm then I gave up. I use something called yello dusty as a paper towel. Btw, when I use alcohol to clean the window it creates some weird foggy effect on the window, feels very weird to touch. Is this normal?

Does it do the foggy effect when your wiping it or before...If its before it could be because of build up on the glass that isnt wanting to come off to easy.Ive seen it before. If its after your wiping then its the paper towel brand..Try  the cheapest and the most generic you can find.

[purplecuts 0]

7 hours ago, Wildgoose said:

Sorry for your frustration but I must say that attempting a paid job with obviously next to no experience is not a good business model. I spent several months (yes months) doing free work for friends and family including walls, cars and a utility trailer all for free just to learn before I ever entertained approaching someone to do a commercial job. I probably spent $400 in materials on these trial runs but chalked it up as educational expenses. A couple of them I had to do over because I screwed them up. 

Don't know what kind of alcohol you are using but it should feel squeaky clean when it's ready. I use regular rubbing alcohol in the 91% variety. I do a pre-clean with denatured alcohol like you burn in alcohol stoves diluted heavily in water. 

Bubbles come from poor squeegee technique. An occasional bubble can be popped and it will never be seen. 

This is true, but I knew I dont know how to do a dry application so I would never try it in front of a paying customer, but I thought that its easy peasy with application fluid.

 

7 hours ago, Wildgoose said:

Here is a link to a great bunch of info that might help you. 

 

Thank you

 

6 hours ago, Primal Decals said:

Does it do the foggy effect when your wiping it or before...If its before it could be because of build up on the glass that isnt wanting to come off to easy.Ive seen it before. If its after your wiping then its the paper towel brand..Try  the cheapest and the most generic you can find.

It does the foggy effect before and after.

 

Now to update you guys I let one of my stickers stay on the window without removing the application tape. I told him I will be back to check today, and now it peels off with no problem, the vinyl stays in place. But it shouldn't need 24 hours to dry. I will do the job tomorrow.

[Primal Decals 621]

I tried wet install one time and hated it.Been doing dry ever since and never have a problem.sticks and holds. Clean, apply, (spray app fluid sometimes on transtape surface), remove transtape while pulling it at 45* keeping it close to the surface..Done. Problem free..

[Go-C Graphics 856]

9 hours ago, purplecuts said:

This is true, but I knew I dont know how to do a dry application so I would never try it in front of a paying customer, but I thought that its easy peasy with application fluid.

Lesson learned.   Do not take customers until you know what you're doing.   Nothing about this is easy as you have learned.  All of us have had to practice a bunch to make it appear easy.  

You need to backup and reevaluate how much practice you've actually done.