amaterasu

Editing artboards in illustrator for cutting

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51 minutes ago, amaterasu said:

I get why you would downgrade the size of your cutter but why would you keep a graphtec cutter if you already have a print and cut? I mean, why would you still do regular cuts? Except for durability, isn't printing far superior to only cutting in every single way? 

No printing is not better in every way - a eco solvent printer or latex printer used for vinyl lays ink on the vinyl (these two types bite into the vinyl so durable) but cut vinyl is preferred in many applications like skeeter said - cut vinyl the color goes all the way thru the vinyl and in many cases you want just the graphic with the substrate colors to show thru - for that cut is preferred.    a print cut machine IMHO is not as nimble and does not do as good of a job on the fine detail items along with why do I want all that wear and tear on a $15K machine?   Print is used for photo realistic, difficult multi color etc but in too many circumstances people use it where cut is better because they are trying to justify a purchase and it is less labor intensive for those multi color.  there is a right application for cut and print - since I left my regular job almost 5 years ago (retired) I would say I do about 50 percent of each - I actually use the cutter more now than I did years ago as I learn more.   I upgrade cutters and printers about every 3 years at this point but in 3 years when my wife retires I will need to get out of printing or go latex as we will be leaving for a month or more at a time and solvent printers are not friendly when they sit for even several days unused - I don't need to be replacing heads every time I return from a trip at that point and need to change my printer to fit my needs at that point.
Bottom line is lots of people get printers because it is "sexy" to have and make those photo realistic prints - but few actually need them and I would a vast majority don't get another one when they need replacing because they have not justified the cost.  Now there are shops that do a lot of business that it makes sense for too.  but for a small shop it is hard to justify other than "I want one and I got my tax refund to help pay for it" and then the realization sets in in about a year or two if they really made the money to break even or not.

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23 hours ago, MZ SKEETER said:

I can speak on the vinyl cutting side..I cut very detailed large designs, that is my niche' and makes me good money.   Those same designs would not show the background colors thru the design, and the great details of the design, if they were printed...  I don't do any printing...  And with cut vinyl the color is all the way thru..   

 

22 hours ago, Dakotagrafx said:

No printing is not better in every way - a eco solvent printer or latex printer used for vinyl lays ink on the vinyl (these two types bite into the vinyl so durable) but cut vinyl is preferred in many applications like skeeter said - cut vinyl the color goes all the way thru the vinyl and in many cases you want just the graphic with the substrate colors to show thru - for that cut is preferred.    a print cut machine IMHO is not as nimble and does not do as good of a job on the fine detail items along with why do I want all that wear and tear on a $15K machine?   Print is used for photo realistic, difficult multi color etc but in too many circumstances people use it where cut is better because they are trying to justify a purchase and it is less labor intensive for those multi color.  there is a right application for cut and print - since I left my regular job almost 5 years ago (retired) I would say I do about 50 percent of each - I actually use the cutter more now than I did years ago as I learn more.   I upgrade cutters and printers about every 3 years at this point but in 3 years when my wife retires I will need to get out of printing or go latex as we will be leaving for a month or more at a time and solvent printers are not friendly when they sit for even several days unused - I don't need to be replacing heads every time I return from a trip at that point and need to change my printer to fit my needs at that point.
Bottom line is lots of people get printers because it is "sexy" to have and make those photo realistic prints - but few actually need them and I would a vast majority don't get another one when they need replacing because they have not justified the cost.  Now there are shops that do a lot of business that it makes sense for too.  but for a small shop it is hard to justify other than "I want one and I got my tax refund to help pay for it" and then the realization sets in in about a year or two if they really made the money to break even or not.

 

Some designs and if you are not an expert in AI, even some logos are impossible to create without a printer. Its impossible to compete with companies that has those printers. Also I have heard that if you dont use a solvent printer for a while it will dry, like you said, but it should loosen up and be read for printing again if you use some cleaning liquid.

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Having owned 3 solvent printers I call BS on the nozzles ever coming back once dried.  I have had to replace them every time.  Now there are people that run with some clogged or deflected nozzles and claim that is ok too, not here.   Also I don't cut corners on media and I only use Oem ink.   So I don't compete for the bottom of the barrel jobs

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I'll throw in that lamination is another reason for a dedicated cutter over a print cut machine.  If you are laminating, you have to laminate before the cut.  So you print, let out gas, laminate, load into cutter, cut.  Having a dedicated cutter speeds up some processes and free's up the printer.  That is, using the cutter to cut and the printer to print, even though it can cut. 

But yeah, the print cut machines are sexy.  And yeah, you can't let those sexy sob's sit long unless you have a magic box that elves fill up each night with $1500 print heads, (helps to have some gnomes around to install them in record time.)  It's not a simple clean them job.  I've watch techs injecting gobs of expensive ink trying to get a head back to life pray like it was a dying relative, knowing there was little hope.

I've never owned a wide format printer, I have just worked in shops that have them.  I know enough that I wouldn't get in there and try the DIY route unless it was a dire emergency.  I'd get the gold warranty.  When the warranty died I'd pay the tech the $300/hour.

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17 hours ago, Dakotagrafx said:

Having owned 3solvent printers I call BS on the nozzles ever coming back once dried.  I have had to replace them every time.  Now there are people that run with some clogged or deflected nozzles and claim that is ok too, not here.   Also I don't cut corners on media and I only use Orem ink.   So I done comepete for the bottom of the barrel jobs

There are many ads for second hand eco solvent print and cut machines. Many of them have been left unused for up to a year or in some cases even a couple of years. All the sellers claim the the printer is as good as new once you use some cleaning liquid. Is that BS?

14 hours ago, dcbevins said:

I'll throw in that lamination is another reason for a dedicated cutter over a print cut machine.  If you are laminating, you have to laminate before the cut.  So you print, let out gas, laminate, load into cutter, cut.  Having a dedicated cutter speeds up some processes and free's up the printer.  That is, using the cutter to cut and the printer to print, even though it can cut. 

But yeah, the print cut machines are sexy.  And yeah, you can't let those sexy sob's sit long unless you have a magic box that elves fill up each night with $1500 print heads, (helps to have some gnomes around to install them in record time.)  It's not a simple clean them job.  I've watch techs injecting gobs of expensive ink trying to get a head back to life pray like it was a dying relative, knowing there was little hope.

I've never owned a wide format printer, I have just worked in shops that have them.  I know enough that I wouldn't get in there and try the DIY route unless it was a dire emergency.  I'd get the gold warranty.  When the warranty died I'd pay the tech the $300/hour.

Thanks guys, Im learning so much here, if only I had joined the forum before I bought all my stuff.. From what you're saying, correct me if Im wrong. A cut only machine is the way to go but if it is possible to justify the purchase of a printer, then it is best to go latex printer + regular cutter. 

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Yes that is bs , tell them that since it is that easy that they should do the cleaning and send you pics of the nozzle,check afterwards.   You won't hear back :)

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2 minutes ago, Dakotagrafx said:

Yes that is bs , tell them that since it is that easy that they should do the cleaning and send you pics of the nozzle,check afterwards.   You won't hear back :)

Replacing printheads could easily cost 1-2 K am I right? What kind of printer would you recommend for A1 poster then? Btw, isn't normal home printes also solvent printers? I mean those we use at home for printing documents. They dont suffer from this problem

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39 minutes ago, amaterasu said:

Replacing printheads could easily cost 1-2 K am I right? What kind of printer would you recommend for A1 poster then? Btw, isn't normal home printes also solvent printers? I mean those we use at home for printing documents. They dont suffer from this problem

print heads depends on the printer, most common ones are $700 to $2800 depending on which head that printer uses - the ones that use the $700 ones usually have between 2 and 6 heads.  Home printers use water based ink and are far more probable to clean the heads as we have all done many times, solvent is a whole other story.  latex doesn't have the problem either but you have to run special electric service for them -  with all that said I have absolutely no idea what the norway printer market looks like for used printers

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2 hours ago, Dakotagrafx said:

print heads depends on the printer, most common ones are $700 to $2800 depending on which head that printer uses - the ones that use the $700 ones usually have between 2 and 6 heads.  Home printers use water based ink and are far more probable to clean the heads as we have all done many times, solvent is a whole other story.  latex doesn't have the problem either but you have to run special electric service for them -  with all that said I have absolutely no idea what the norway printer market looks like for used printers

Its somewhere between 3-5k for cheap eco solvent printers. Other wide format printers like Epson stylus pro 9900 (I have no idea what ink they use) are somewhere between 1-3 k. Tbh you guys really scared me and I dont think I'll ever buy any solvent based printer. 


Update: I just found out that the epson printer uses pigment ink. Would that printer + laminate do the job?

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some do it with special vinyl but it isn't the right way and usual life span is stated to be under a year.  the right way is eco solvent, letex, or thermo resin - any of which will cost you 6-10,000 on the cheap by the time you get a decent working printer.   you can get them cheaper but by the time you put the money in bringing them up to par it is that expensive.    then you have mass producing shops offering banners for $1 sq ft and that doesn't even make sense to fire yours up for that price.

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1 hour ago, Dakotagrafx said:

some do it with special vinyl but it isn't the right way and usual life span is stated to be under a year.  the right way is eco solvent, letex, or thermo resin - any of which will cost you 6-10,000 on the cheap by the time you get a decent working printer.   you can get them cheaper but by the time you put the money in bringing them up to par it is that expensive.    then you have mass producing shops offering banners for $1 sq ft and that doesn't even make sense to fire yours up for that price.

Prices in Norway are not like U.S. I already have a customer that wants some decals on his window and his car. Nothing fancy, just the name of his shop, opening hours and his phone number. We agreed on 1200 dollars for this job. You might think I'm basically stealing this poor guys money but Im actually doing it for quite cheap.

Im not worried about not getting my money back if I buy a printer, even if I dont get any customers its still a risk Im willing to take. However, if I do buy a printer for, lets say 3 K. Then 1 job a month would easily justify that purchase but from what Ive just learned from you guys. 1 job a month means replacing print heads and that is something I dont want to constantly stress and worry about. Even If I forget about printing on vinyl for now, I will need a printer that can print business cards and posters for those sidewalk boards.

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How was your bottom of the barrel Redsail  vinyl cutter $1200  and a printer only $3k?    You said US and Norway prices different,  So even the cheapest cutter here like you bought around $200 with software here... You paid $1200+...  So sounds like the printer would be closer to $20,000..  Are they giving printers away? 

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1 hour ago, amaterasu said:

Prices in Norway are not like U.S. I already have a customer that wants some decals on his window and his car. Nothing fancy, just the name of his shop, opening hours and his phone number. We agreed on 1200 dollars for this job. You might think I'm basically stealing this poor guys money but Im actually doing it for quite cheap.

Im not worried about not getting my money back if I buy a printer, even if I dont get any customers its still a risk Im willing to take. However, if I do buy a printer for, lets say 3 K. Then 1 job a month would easily justify that purchase but from what Ive just learned from you guys. 1 job a month means replacing print heads and that is something I dont want to constantly stress and worry about. Even If I forget about printing on vinyl for now, I will need a printer that can print business cards and posters for those sidewalk boards.

if you are doing business cards look at a color laserjet - if doing posters for inside look at a large inkjet with pigment inks 

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The volume I saw on the 54" Roland I ran was around ten jobs a day.  Could be days of five jobs, or days of twenty.  It would see on certain weekends, two days down. Sometimes this would be rolls of reflective vinyl to make decals and signs for a mine.  Sometimes this was adhesive decals to go on aluminum or corrugated plastic.  Some times this was feet of banner material.  Less often was decals for windows, vehicles or license plates.  Rarely was tshirt transfer material in around batches of twenty.  There were also times of windows cling, transparent decals and fabric material for flag making.  We did not do vehicle wraps.

The vinyl cutters we had, and we had three, made signs, lots of glitter tshirts, rhinestone shirts, license plates, and vehicle graphics.  We had a sublimation printer for mugs, license plates and some shirts. We had an extensive and expensive embroidery machine.  We also produce tons of screen printed shirts and caps with one six station screen printing rig, flash dry units and a convener oven.  We bought 4'x8' sheets of corroplast and aluminum and cut them to size.  We didn't laminate a great deal, but had the units.  We designed business cards, but outsourced the printing.

You need the volume to justify one of these big printers, both from a cost perspective and with the down time problem and the heads clogging.  As you can see, the versatility of the printer kept the volume going.  Using it for just one certain type of production isn't optimal.  You get the benefit from the range of output and media types.  I listed all that stuff to give you an idea of the types of groups normally in this market.  Sign shops that do it all and conner the market in their area.  It is hard to do this as a home biz, this being the stuff produced from a wide format print cut machine.  Even with a bunch of output abilities, tons of space for production and vehicle bays, you see these shops shutting down from time to time, do to lack of profict.

As Daokotagrfx said, maybe a large or wide format pigment ink printer would do for you.  They can make stunning photo's.  They aren't as versatile and don't do graphics for outdoors well, if at all.

Consider outsourcing until you reach a sustainable volume level.  You take less profit, have to depend on another source for you prints, have to worry about shipping, but can still draw in customers if your doing the design and physically handing the product to them.

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1 hour ago, MZ SKEETER said:

How was your bottom of the barrel Redsail  vinyl cutter $1200  and a printer only $3k?    You said US and Norway prices different,  So even the cheapest cutter here like you bought around $200 with software here... You paid $1200+...  So sounds like the printer would be closer to $20,000..  Are they giving printers away? 

Its not uncommon to find cheap second hand printers here. I bought my Redsail new for 1200 dollars, including shipping and 25% tax and I spent another 1.3 K on vinyl and tools. A second hand Roland VersaCAM VP540 recently went for 2.8K. Should I have bought that one instead? Ofc but I could not afford it at that time, nor can I afford it now.  Second hand stuff are usually pretty cheap here but the market is not so big for printers and cutters.

1 hour ago, Dakotagrafx said:

if you are doing business cards look at a color laserjet - if doing posters for inside look at a large inkjet with pigment inks 

Thanks, I will buy a color laserjet for business cards but I was thinking of posters that is used on sidewalk boards, or is it pavement boards? 

These things 

 

58 minutes ago, dcbevins said:

The volume I saw on the 54" Roland I ran was around ten jobs a day.  Could be days of five jobs, or days of twenty.  It would see on certain weekends, two days down. Sometimes this would be rolls of reflective vinyl to make decals and signs for a mine.  Sometimes this was adhesive decals to go on aluminum or corrugated plastic.  Some times this was feet of banner material.  Less often was decals for windows, vehicles or license plates.  Rarely was tshirt transfer material in around batches of twenty.  There were also times of windows cling, transparent decals and fabric material for flag making.  We did not do vehicle wraps.

The vinyl cutters we had, and we had three, made signs, lots of glitter tshirts, rhinestone shirts, license plates, and vehicle graphics.  We had a sublimation printer for mugs, license plates and some shirts. We had an extensive and expensive embroidery machine.  We also produce tons of screen printed shirts and caps with one six station screen printing rig, flash dry units and a convener oven.  We bought 4'x8' sheets of corroplast and aluminum and cut them to size.  We didn't laminate a great deal, but had the units.  We designed business cards, but outsourced the printing.

You need the volume to justify one of these big printers, both from a cost perspective and with the down time problem and the heads clogging.  As you can see, the versatility of the printer kept the volume going.  Using it for just one certain type of production isn't optimal.  You get the benefit from the range of output and media types.  I listed all that stuff to give you an idea of the types of groups normally in this market.  Sign shops that do it all and conner the market in their area.  It is hard to do this as a home biz, this being the stuff produced from a wide format print cut machine.  Even with a bunch of output abilities, tons of space for production and vehicle bays, you see these shops shutting down from time to time, do to lack of profict.

As Daokotagrfx said, maybe a large or wide format pigment ink printer would do for you.  They can make stunning photo's.  They aren't as versatile and don't do graphics for outdoors well, if at all.

Consider outsourcing until you reach a sustainable volume level.  You take less profit, have to depend on another source for you prints, have to worry about shipping, but can still draw in customers if your doing the design and physically handing the product to them.

I dont know if Im being realistic or pessimistic but I dont think Ill get anything near that volume. At least not for a while. I get it, I will most likely end up frustrated from replacing clogged heads. I can't outsource because, let me give you an example, the pavement board I linked to Dakotagrafx. This one The suppliers sell them for around 100 dollars a piece but the shipping is 200 dollars so I would need to buy a large quantity to justify the shipping cost which I can't atm. What I could do is buy 1 at a time from stores for around 150 dollars and sell them for around 230 dollars with posters and stickers. If I were to outsource the printing job, I would need to pay at least 70 dollars for the posters. Thats only 10 dollar profit.

 

I forgot to mention that those pavement boards costs around 350 dollars incl posters and vinyl logo. And that is if you have already designed you own posters. 

 

I would do the design for free and even deliver it for free

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you want solvent for what you showed above - 

think we have all gave the help we can - time to jump in and either use what info has been offered or learn the hard way - your choice - I am done here

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Have you learned how work with designing and settings etc like you  originally were asking in the beginning of your post ?  If it were me i would learn how the ins and outs on how to work with a design program,cutting software etc  and getting perfect cuts before jumping into doing print. Just my 2 cents..

 

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9 hours ago, amaterasu said:

The suppliers sell them for around 100 dollars a piece but the shipping is 200 dollars so I would need to buy a large quantity to justify the shipping cost which I can't atm. What I could do is buy 1 at a time from stores for around 150 dollars and sell them for around 230 dollars with posters and stickers. If I were to outsource the printing job, I would need to pay at least 70 dollars for the posters. Thats only 10 dollar profit.

You have to get the blank signs anyway.  So that is a given.  If you just need vinyl, then get a cutter.  If you need photo realistic output, shipping shouldn't be crazy from an outsource vendor.  I bet if you scrounged around you could find sources for the printed and or cut material under fifty bucks, maybe under thirty.  For precut vinyl I bet you could find somebody to go under twenty.  We are talking about a graphic on adhesive, or cut vinyl in a roll, in a tube that might weigh a pound or two.

A quick search found this group.  I know nothing about them.  Don't know about international shipping,  But just one of the first sites that popped up a 20"x27" print on adhesive vinyl for outdoor is $29.00, $5.50 a square yard.  https://www.power-graphics.com/printing-for-outdoor-use/economy-calendared-adhesive-vinyl.html which is close to the size I think of the sidewalk sign you posted a picture of.  I am in the USA so maybe the prices are skewed were your located.

People with these machines want volume.  They will wheel and deal, especially if you are a repeat customer.  Outsourcing should be viable.  It's cheaper than a $290 a month 60 month lease on a 30" Roland.  Plus, buying $300 ink cartridges x 4 cmyk, sometimes x6, (say x 12 to have backups,) plus media, plus tools.

Frankly, anyone that has no experience in this kind of endeavor is deeply in over their head.  A year in a shop with is kinda gear would go far.

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16 hours ago, Primal Decals said:

Have you learned how work with designing and settings etc like you  originally were asking in the beginning of your post ?  If it were me i would learn how the ins and outs on how to work with a design program,cutting software etc  and getting perfect cuts before jumping into doing print. Just my 2 cents..

 

Im still waining for my Serial to USB Cable

 

7 hours ago, dcbevins said:

You have to get the blank signs anyway.  So that is a given.  If you just need vinyl, then get a cutter.  If you need photo realistic output, shipping shouldn't be crazy from an outsource vendor.  I bet if you scrounged around you could find sources for the printed and or cut material under fifty bucks, maybe under thirty.  For precut vinyl I bet you could find somebody to go under twenty.  We are talking about a graphic on adhesive, or cut vinyl in a roll, in a tube that might weigh a pound or two.

A quick search found this group.  I know nothing about them.  Don't know about international shipping,  But just one of the first sites that popped up a 20"x27" print on adhesive vinyl for outdoor is $29.00, $5.50 a square yard.  https://www.power-graphics.com/printing-for-outdoor-use/economy-calendared-adhesive-vinyl.html which is close to the size I think of the sidewalk sign you posted a picture of.  I am in the USA so maybe the prices are skewed were your located.

People with these machines want volume.  They will wheel and deal, especially if you are a repeat customer.  Outsourcing should be viable.  It's cheaper than a $290 a month 60 month lease on a 30" Roland.  Plus, buying $300 ink cartridges x 4 cmyk, sometimes x6, (say x 12 to have backups,) plus media, plus tools.

Frankly, anyone that has no experience in this kind of endeavor is deeply in over their head.  A year in a shop with is kinda gear would go far.

Actually I gave up on printing on vinyl, I have accepted that its not something I can do. I just need a printer that is able to print on paper that can last outdoor. Outsourcing is honestly not an option, its way too expensive here.

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I received my Tripp Lite USB serial adapter today. installed the drivers and it doesn't work. Signcut crashes  whenever I try to cut something. Doesn't work with SCAL either

Nevermind, finally got it working now

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Glad to hear you got it working. What did you do to get it working? It might help other members with the same problem.

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4 hours ago, arty-rc said:

Glad to hear you got it working. What did you do to get it working? It might help other members with the same problem.

I deactivated and reactivated my USB port. It works very well now, except for this one time it crashed in the middle of a cut. The cuts are terrible though, not accurate at all and I have tried every possible offset number. :( 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cne7qng54v92nf9/17622986_1393433620721937_72987500_o.jpg?dl=0

 

I wouldn't advise anyone to buy this cutter. Even as an entry model

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15 minutes ago, amaterasu said:

I deactivated and reactivated my USB port. It works very well now, except for this one time it crashed in the middle of a cut. The cuts are terrible though, not accurate at all and I have tried every possible offset number. :( 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cne7qng54v92nf9/17622986_1393433620721937_72987500_o.jpg?dl=0

 

I wouldn't advise anyone to buy this cutter. Even as an entry model

I would bet a dollar you are still just not set up correctly. Could be anything from a slightly off driver or some of the actual cutter settings being off a bit or even a glitchy file. Value cutters have their issues but still are capable of pretty amazing results in the hands of an experienced user.

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1 hour ago, MZ SKEETER said:

Ouch....so how did you set your blade depth? 

So that it barely touches the back paper. 

 

55 minutes ago, Wildgoose said:

I would bet a dollar you are still just not set up correctly. Could be anything from a slightly off driver or some of the actual cutter settings being off a bit or even a glitchy file. Value cutters have their issues but still are capable of pretty amazing results in the hands of an experienced user.

I hope so but I dont think it has anything to do with the settings, it does the same when initiating a test cut from the cutter itself. Maybe the blade is of poor quality?

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