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lilypoo

Oracal 631 Just Will Not Stick

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I've been doing a lot of research since last Friday when I had an experience with 631 refusing to stick to a particular wall.  The design is a globe made up of curved stripes.  I went back last night to add three words to the wall and a few of the stripes from the globe had fallen onto the floor!  This was after carefully pressing the vinyl into the wall texture for about an hour with my hands and fingers, applying tons of pressure with and without the backing as a cushion, etc. 

 

It's an interior wall with fresh (just a few weeks old) semi-gloss paint.  The wall texture isn't like anything I've seen on an interior wall and I suspect this is the issue.  It's almost like a popcorn ceiling texture but with finer, smaller bumps.  Some of the bumps are quite jagged and sharp.  I've used 631 successfully on all sorts of textured surfaces.  Sometimes it doesn't like to go on but once it's on, it has never tried to come off on its own.  ;)

 

So last night I had three 32" wide words which were double layered.  I took a hair dryer this time and heated up the wall and heated the vinyl before and after application.  I burned my poor finger tips trying to get the heated vinyl to stick.  In places it would lift even after seeming quite adhered.  I used finger, hand, felt squeegee, normal squeegee, etc.  It was sticking when I left but I'm really worried it's going to lift again.

 

I'm at a loss here.  From my research I'm thinking my only option might be Avery matte vinyl with permanent adhesive.  I'm already barely breaking even on this job since it's discounted for a non-profit and I ordered two 24" rolls of 631 so I'm hesitant to order more vinyl without being somewhat sure this will solve the problem.  We really can't do 651 or something similar because glare would be a huge issue with the way the lighting in the room is. 

 

Any ideas?  Here's a pic of the design...the words are 18" tall so we're not talking teeny pieces.

post-84312-0-66755200-1398890242_thumb.j

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Not all types of paint are receptive to vinyl. I would also wait 3-4 weeks before applying wall decals. This allows the paint to fully cure and finish out-gassing. The sharp bumpy wall definitely isn't ideal either. This one might just be a losing proposition any way you try it.

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i know you are trying to do vinyl but you might consider painting it.

it sounds like the surface won't be very vinyl receptive no matter what you do.

 

anyway you can get a close up angle shot of the texture so we can see that?

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In my home I use Valspar Semi-Gloss paint from Lowes and nothing wants to stick to it. I think they add teflon to the formula to keep dirt and marks from sticking.

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on textures like that, i use a tennis ball and heat gun.

 

on troublesome jobs, i've even asked for their paint to make a sample board at the shop to test on. 

 

i had a paint gassing issue on a go cart body a few months back. i used straight acetone and then alcohol and it worked like a charm. 

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Frzn, I thought of painting but I'd need to make a stencil and there's no way I'd get a clean edge on this wall.   And they want it right on the wall, so prints, posters, board, etc. would be out.  *sigh*

 

I didn't get to see the walls before I took the job since they are about 45 minutes away.  When I asked what the wall was like she said it was just like a regular inside wall.  Not!

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i'm just thinking out loud here but would a clear coat on top of the vinyl help it stick? like clear aerosol frog juice?

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Thanks for the tennis ball idea!  I am at least going to go back and redo the globe b/c I'm pretty sure the pieces I re-stuck won't stick long.  They were covered in debris that came off the wall.

 

Acetone won't damage the paint?  I wiped it down with a damp cloth but it's so rough I couldn't really rub...had to dab moreso.

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A higher grade vinyl like 651 or even 751 would have better adhesive, before you buy a roll do you have any scrap you could test it with?

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Some type of coating was another thing I was thinking.  Of course I don't have anything like it but it might be worth trying.  After redoing it all with acetone and a tennis ball.  LOL

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I use 651 and 751 pretty much for all my work, but they need matte.  There are rows of fluorescent lights all along the ceiling and people will be sitting in chairs while the vinyl is about 12" down from the ceiling.  So glare is a concern.  Supposedly Avery makes a matte with a 651-like adhesive. 

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you could use the 751 for a paint stencil since the adhesive is better. might help you get a better edge.

 

it's definitely not the most cost effective though...

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In my home I use Valspar Semi-Gloss paint from Lowes and nothing wants to stick to it. I think they add teflon to the formula to keep dirt and marks from sticking.

 

Any "stain resistant" paint has ingredients to help keep things from sticking.  "Things" includes vinyl, unfortunately.  :-\

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Stenciling might be an option if the 751 would indeed stick enough.  I'm skeptical though.  And yeah, on the pricey side.  Ugh.

 

So my research led me to Avery 700.  Not matte like I originally read but "medium" gloss and less glossy than 651/751.  Good news is it comes in lots of colors and is only about $20ish for a 10y roll in 24".  Bad news is US Cutter doesn't carry it AND I'd have to redo everything.  I'm quite certain it'd stick better and that it'd be less glossy.  But not sure they'd be happy with the medium gloss.

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fellers and sign warehouse both carry avery products they might have it in stock.

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 If you can get a projector  and get in before or after hours you could project the image and trace it with a stabilo pencil, then paint. You would have to find a paint that you cut with a matte agent to cut the gloss. Nova Colors work well indoors and they are water based i believe.

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That's an idea!  No projector though.  Ack.

 

The words are coming off the walls, so I guess my next step is to see if we can do a vinyl with a more permanent adhesive.  I will order the Avery 700 since it's supposedly less-shiny than anything else available in an outdoor adhesive.  I'll do the heat gun + tennis ball trick too AND get something to seal the edges.  I'll also clean the paint at least with alcohol before starting.  Thankfully this client is so understanding!!

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Might want to try a seal-it pen on the edges but if it failing all over I doubt the outcome will be satisfactory.

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if you are going with a stronger adhesive, is temporary not an issue? if not maybe go with the stencil idea and lightly sand where the art goes and clean dust off good after before applying? 

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Paint (& stencil, if needed) is the resolution with the fewest ifs, ands, or buts.

 

(you oughta change that font while you're at it)

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They don't care if it's removable; we went with indoor to avoid glare.  They plan to knock the wall down in the next phase of renovations anyway.  I really don't think it will seal well enough as a stencil to paint, even with permanent adhesive.  I should have taken a close up of the wall but it's so bumpy and sharp that some of the bumps actually poked through two layers of vinyl when I got really aggressive with heat and pressure.

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Just got the info that they used Speedwall Interior Semi-Gloss by Glidden.  Researched the paint and it doesn't say anything about being particularly smudge-proof but it does say it's a budget paint that is perfect for commercial applications and property management companies.  Hrm.

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Sounds like a (partial ?) refund and walk away... with apologies.

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I was thinking I'd order the permanent medium gloss and try it?  I think it's worth a shot.  Maybe.  I got a pic of the vinyl's current state and of the globe and three words, only the capital letters on two of the words have begun to peel off.  So it seems promising that if I have more sticky, more heat, a tennis ball and sealer for the edges it might work?  If I order new vinyl with permanent adhesive I'll still be ahead a tiny bit whereas if I refund, I will be at a huge loss and they will have to come up with another way to decorate their wall.  Ugh.

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