OWJones 1,981 Posted January 8, 2014 I know the technical differences between all the different types of ink, but haven't seen a side-by-side comparison of their output quality and color. I recently purchased an Epson Stylus Photo 1400 that had been used with Epson Claria dye ink and I replaced the old dried out cartridges with a non-OEM set of generics ($7.35 total for 8 ink cartridges on ebay - including S&H!) and confirmed that the printer works. I had to do some cleaning and head un-clogging, but now it's pretty much flawless. I want to upgrade it with a CISS from Cobra Ink but can't decide if I want to go with a UV Dye or Pigment based system. I already have a letter/legal sized pigment printer and a 13"x19" dye-sublimation printer, so I had originally thought about going with dye inks this time just for variety, but now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if I should go with pigments again for better water-resistance and UV fade resistance. It would also let me print t-shirt transfers larger than legal size if I ever needed to. I know I'll have to clean the head and flush out any remaining ink before upgrading, but I'm going to do that regardless of which type of ink I choose. Does anyone have two identical (or similar) printers, one with dye and one with pigment, or has anyone done a side-by-side comparison between the two types? I'm just curious if I'm going to lose much color depth or quality by going with pigment over dye-based inks. As always, any help is appreciated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybyrd 3,770 Posted January 8, 2014 No help here since even when I used Epson cartridges they are pigment. I did have a c88 way back with dye ink and it tended to fade very fast and wasn't that much difference in the color from what I saw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dakotagrafx 7,297 Posted January 8, 2014 dye tends to have the best colors for pictures but fades quickly (uv dye is just a way to say it fades a little slower) - pigment is what they use for documents to last 100 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 8, 2014 I did an unfair test just now, I printed the same image on the same type of paper (Kodak Premium Picture Paper for inkjet printers). For my WF4020 with 4-color Cobra Ink pigment inks I selected the appropriate color profile. For the SP1400 with 6-color generic inks I did not have an appropriate color profile and just went with the defaults.Even without an appropriate color profile I still expected the dye print to look better than the pigment for some reason... I figured more ink color choices should automatically provide better color, I guess? The first pic shows the original, scaled way down to keep the file size forum-friendly. In the second pic, the dye print is at the top and the pigment print is at the bottom. The paper on the dye print is curled, which is distorting the image a little, but doesn't affect the colors any, although there is some glare on both images...It looks to me that with the proper color profile, the 4-color pigment ink did a much better job of matching the on screen original than the 6-color dye ink did. It may be due to using cheap, generic inks, too, but if all of the pigment prints look as good as that one, I think I should be OK going with pigment... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dakotagrafx 7,297 Posted January 8, 2014 ok now post that same picture in 50 years so my kids can compare 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybyrd 3,770 Posted January 9, 2014 Just tape them in a southern facing window for a couple weeks and you'll see a remarkable difference. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 10, 2014 <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="jaybird" data-cid="340375" data-time="1389274412"><p> Just tape them in a southern facing window for a couple weeks and you'll see a remarkable difference.</p></blockquote> I wasn't planning on making this an outdoor decal printer, but just for giggles I took those two prints and taped them together. I covered the left 1/3 with Oracal 651 Clear and the right 1/3 with Oraguard 210 and left the center exposed and then taped the whole assembly inside a South facing window. I'll take pictures at (ir)regular intervals and we'll see what happens... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybyrd 3,770 Posted January 10, 2014 I had a cheap Cannon from Walmart for a backup and once in a while I'd put a sale flyer it the window and I was amazed how fast they would fade out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 10, 2014 I dont necessarily believe their estimates, but Epson claims their Claria inks are very fade resistant - "Fade Resistance / Print Longevity: Up to 98 years under glass & Up to 200 years album storage". I'm sure those numbers are based on being out of direct sunlight and under museum quality UV filtered glass, etc... Not really relevant as I'll be using Cobra Ink's much less expensive ink. I am curious as to how well it really stands up over time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monkey 252 Posted January 10, 2014 With these systems do you have to worry about inks drying up in printer if not used constantly? Ive been looking at them but that was a worry of mine from some stuff I read/understood. Was looking at a couple on cobras site. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 10, 2014 You have to worry about that with ALL printers, but the high end printers will automatically cycle (waste) ink to keep it from drying out in the lines/heads. With desktop printers you need to print something regularly to mimic that process. There is software available to automate the process. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dakotagrafx 7,297 Posted January 10, 2014 not sure if the ricoh standard inks are dye or pigment as i use sublimation ink in mine but they are amazingly clog resistant - wish more printers would use the gel 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybyrd 3,770 Posted January 10, 2014 With the Epsons just runs a test page every week or so to keep the ink moving and they are pretty dependable. I have a small Epson all in 1 printer and it has been over a year now with only a couple cleaning cycles and it is set up with cis pigment ink from Cobra. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 24, 2014 Two weeks in and the dye print (top) is already showing signs of fading, and we've had a lot more overcast, cloudy days than sunny days in the past fourteen days... It's not as noticeable in this pic, but there is a definite lightening in the center section of they dye print. The laminate reflects the light differently which doesn't really show the difference in a low res picture, but it's pretty obvious to the naked eye.. You can see the difference on the non-printed white border around the edge - the laminate tends to darken the image slightly. I am impressed with how well both the Oracal 651 Clear and Oraguard 210 are both doing in reducing the amount of fading. I should print a page with solid ribbons of color all the way across to better compare how well they work... There is some faint fading in the pigment print (bottom), especially visible in the green grass, not so much in the background. FYI - The window this has been taped to is <10 years old and most likely has some sort of UV filtering included in it's glass - if this were outside, it would probably be more pronounced... I don't think I can recommend either dye or pigment based printers for long-term outdoor use... (insert "We told you so!" messages here) I'm thinking based on this that I'm going to go with the pigment CISS system for the Stylus Photo 1400. I'm gonna go ahead and replace my WF1100 for dye sub while I'm at it and get another dye sub CISS for a new WF7010 while I'm at it... cha-ching! I've got to be sure to remember and ask for the forum discount! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybyrd 3,770 Posted January 24, 2014 Maybe your real world testing will end some of the debate about durability outdoors. Next time you need to do something with the dye-sub sticker materials also for comparison. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 24, 2014 Yeah, there's been a lot of smack-talking going on about solvent vs. everything else. It will be nice to have some real world photos we can point to and say "see?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dakotagrafx 7,297 Posted January 24, 2014 sublimation purse holders Lilo is actual for my wife Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted January 31, 2014 Three weeks in and the dye print is fading even more and the difference between the laminated and bare sections is much more apparent. The pigment image is still holding it's own after three weeks with minimal difference between the laminated and bare sections. Remember, this is 3 weeks during the winter with the shortest days out of the year, so don't get too excited... You can see a line, looks like a scratch, that runs down the center of these pics - that's the edge of the Oracal 651 Clear - the left side has been laminated with it, the right side is bare. The far right edge of the image is laminated with Oraguard 210, but I can't see any difference between it and the 651 laminated sides, so I'm just going to focus on the differences between the laminated and bare from now on... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OWJones 1,981 Posted February 22, 2014 Today is Feb 22 - pics were hung in window on Jan 9 - that's uh... hang on... I didn't realize there would be math involved... 44 days elapsed... First up - non-OEM dye-based inks from Epson Stylus Photo 1400 -- The fading continues, but hasn't got a whole lot worse than last time I checked up - still enough fade that it shouldn't be used. Second up - Cobra Ink brand pigment inks in an Epson WP4020 -- It looks like some fading is perhaps starting to take place, but not nearly as obvious as the dye-based inks. The laminated portions of both types of inks are still holding up well, though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
