Pricing a 5' x 10' Outdoor Light Box

[7five7 0]

Hey guys, this is my first time ever bidding a job like this, what it is is a 5' x 10' outdoor light box about ten feet off the ground in front of a business. They want both sides done plus one that hangs on the front of the store. It will be two colors (red and black). What vinyl would you use? Oracal 751 or 651 or a transluecent film? Any idea what you would charge for a job like this? I would cut and install, and they would take the sign "sides" down so I could install them at my garage. So in total it would be 3 - 5' x 10' signs, 2 colors, installed.

Thanks for all your help!

[Snapper 30]

First thing you should do before getting to deep on this... is to stop in the Building Department and check into what is required as far Licensing... Permitting and Insurance requirements. This type of job carries more liability with it then cutting window vinyl. And when the code enforcer see the signs up and drops in... THEY WILL point right at YOU. So first cover your own. Other then that MxMxT=$ (material x mark-up x time = cost)

[Muffoletto 2]

Exactly what snapper said... Ask to see approval from the building dept first.

I wouldn't install anything without it! Now, if they brought the sign to you and they installed it, no worries for you.

To answer your question, id print on translucent vinyl or 651 if it's all one solid printed sheet. If your cutting lettering / graphics, translucents or 751 is best.

[7five7 0]

Thanks so much guys, i guess i should be more clearer. The sign is already up, they will take the sides out and bring them to me so i do not have to put them up or anything like that. Would i still need to talk to the building dept.? Thank you guys for the help!

[Muffoletto 2]

Even it the sign is up you have to get a permit. If the artwork on the sign has changed you have to get a permit. Id go visit your building dept and ask for the sign regulations. They should have a packet explaing there guidlines availible to you. It's not worth avoiding especially when the work is all done and next thing you know you get a call from your customer and they tell you they were fined by the city or county or you get a letter in the mail from the building dept.....

If ur not on site doing the work...taking down / putting up, then it's your customers responsibility to deal with the permit. I get a few customers that wanna do that to save a few bucks "but", you should still supply them with the facts about the sign. A image of the sign complete with square footage, materials used and cost. I do that for any sign job, a copy for me an a copy for the customer.

[7five7 0]

Thank you very much, I'll look into that!

[Rodger 527]

Some places you need a permit for burping it seems , other places you can build a house without a permit . To assume this guy needs permits to apply vinyl at his shop or to an existing sign on site is too general IMO . I would be willing to bet a cold Pepsi that he has no liability at all if applying vinyl at his shop ( like was stated in the 1rst post ) . Bottom line at most places is the property owner or leasor that has the liablity .

[Snapper 30]

Rodger not needing anything... that may be the case and if so checking will do no harm. But if something is needed knowing beforehand will save allot of headaches. In most Municipalities a Licensed Sign Contractor is required to get a permit... Owner or not. Just because he installed to vinyl in his garage does not remove all liability. Say wind removes a large letter and it ends up on someones car window and they hit another person. Who going to have a finger pointed at them... the guys that slid the panel in or the one that applied it. Just saying all things carry liability and this has more exposure then window stickers.

[Rodger 527]

It is good to be able to disagree without being disagreeable . I reread the original post again & did not see where this is in a municipality . It may be , but i did not assume that . There is the liability that was being discussed about requiring a permit & sombody getting fined etc if a permit was not taken out . BTW , I don't think re-decalling an existing sign is the same as installing a sign or would require a permit in most places . Then there is the liability you speak of in your last post as far as a decal blowing off & causing an accident . I don't doupt there a zillion posible scenarios , but that laibility is present no matter what .. permit or not . Getting a permit does not eliminate any of that liability . I do assume any store front company carries general liability insurance . I would be more worried about the wind that would blow off a large decal at 1 time doing more damage than the example you mentioned . Since only the liability of getting a permit was being discussed , I am still willing to bet the cold Pepsi . I think the liability is the same as far as if decals are put on a sign or a window , you posted " This type of job carries more liability with it then cutting window vinyl. "

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

All city codes differ some require permits to do any thing some don't require any . As far as liability goes doing something in ones shop carries no liability other than using the right vinyl add correct app. Procedure. Assuming he would be liabil for some ones else's work removing and installing the faces is laughable that would fall entirely on the owners it would carry no more liability than someone bringing in a sheet of coroplast for lettering then taking it and hanging it on a couple 4x4s if it blew off and did damage in some way you would have no responsibility . The poster probably would be required to carry only what a retailer would be required to have . 757 translucent is the right vinyl for backlit signage

[Rodger 527]

yeah , that is how i view it also . This forum is mostly beginners & small business owners . While I like to debate many things, the main reason i commented is posts like that IMO cause many.. ESPECIALLY beginners to fret & worry about trivial things . IMO , there is more chance of winning the lottery 2 times in a row than for a complete large decal to blow off , stick to a windshiled & cause an accident . If the wind was that strong , it most likely would be impossible to tell where the decal came from anyway as MUCH more than that decal would be flying thru the air . Years ago , there was a guy on here that used static cling vinyl on his salom racecar , a mustang that went about 100 & he never had the static cling come off . I think i could throw 651 at a car & it would stick . Same thing with the permit thing , no harm to check , but as the original post said , it was done in his garage & the decal maker is not responsible for any permit of any kind at all . I would have to see proof to believe otherwise . I think many of these discussions are based on what some project & the other side is from what they have actually experienced .

[7five7 0]

I greatly appreciate all of your replies! Thank you all so much. I talked to the owner today and he wants to order new lexan for it since they have a lot of ghosting on them. He also has another big backlit sign and said he didnt get any permits or anything like that for that one and its been there for about five years. I looked on the Township's website and they had a direct link to their codes of ordinances, and when i click on "signs and billboards" it says nothing other than "reserved to accomodate future ordinances"

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

I greatly appreciate all of your replies! Thank you all so much. I talked to the owner today and he wants to order new lexan for it since they have a lot of ghosting on them. He also has another big backlit sign and said he didnt get any permits or anything like that for that one and its been there for about five years. I looked on the Township's website and they had a direct link to their codes of ordinances, and when i click on "signs and billboards" it says nothing other than "reserved to accomodate future ordinances"

And where there is a code it applies little to existing structures. I put up a 4x8 Dibond sign up on 4x4s at our local code enforcement dept. and didn't have a permit for that. I think you will be fine and the new faces is the way to go you can use cleaners or ghost off but where the old vinyl was the lexan did not yellow from the uv light like the rest and will show up more when lit.

Dan

[Snapper 30]

by

mabscotthandyman

The poster probably would be required to carry only what a retailer would be required to have.

Never said anything about face other then the vinyl that was applied to it... which is what 7five7 would be doing. In reality lawyers would drag all involved in and hope to settle. So yep should have General Liability Policy at the very least once they go from hobby stuff to commercial.

Rodger

I've had little one horse towns require and charged a fee for a permit for a face change... then again I've have burg's allow it with no charge but a permit was required and was issued to have a paper trail as to who did what and when to install a double sided 5'x12' flex faced sign on a pole 25' in the air. Now the fine for evading that free permit could of been up to $2500.00. So I always speak with the zoning person when I do a job. Some places inside a town can have Historic Districts that have another layer of restrictions beyond that of the local permitting body.

7five7 I'd speak with a real person... just to CYOA. If your going to be in the sign game you don't want to tee off the forks that have or presume to have the power.

[7five7 0]

Thanks again guys!

[Rodger 527]

I agree , always better safe than sorry , but what you said above is installing . There is no individual permit I have ever heard of to install vinyl on something in your garage . What the customer does with it when it leaves , is up to the customer . He can put over a mud puddle or on top of the highest bldg around , that would be where a permit is required or not in that location . The original post stated the decals were to be applied in his garage . ..& turns out in actuality , there is no permit needed to install the sign , let alone re-decal it in his garage . There are so many countless possibilties that we could " discuss " them 4-ever . But for this exact situation , the permit advice seems overkill . There would be more paperwork , red tape than even the government keeps & that is part of the reason they can't turn a profit .

[Snapper 30]

Roger Signs are how I've paid my bills for the last 30 yrs. Over that time I have had many jobs go from can you do this to can you also do that. I've had many say I can do this only to find out they can't. In my little chunk of the world over the last few years thing have changed... now you must pay yearly for a license to get a permit to do any sign work... each town now require a separate license ranging from $100 to $150. Go into the larger multiplicities those fees jumps way up $500 as well as insurance minimums. Code Officer drops in and there is not sheet for the work... they will drag all involved in. So what was good in the past may not apply today. To them it's all about the fee's or fines that justifies their propose for being. Most Government bodies are a bottomless pit and the reason we are in such a bad state of affairs ... they do not care if you turn a profit as long as they can get theirs first... last and in the end.

All in all each can do as they please till someone within the circle catches wind... of it. From the questions 7five7 posed it's his first dance into real sign work. Just trying to make sure he did not get his feet stepped on.

[Rodger 527]

Yeah , i understand all that , but come on ... installing decals in his shop ? A business license/permit ... yes but not an indivual permit for installing decals on that sign HEHEHAHA . What you say would be good advice for installing decals on a sign in place or installing a new sign , but that is not what the situation is . Heck , I bet in New York City , you need a permit to apply for a permit ... Like Hank Jr sings . New people don't need to be scared to install decals at home, their shop/garage etc . That is my perspective & no matter what any other situation calls for , I say no permit is needed for installing decals on a sign brought to anybodies place of business . Fact is , in this situation no permit is needed for any stage of it .

[Snapper 30]

7five7 siad "So in total it would be 3 - 5' x 10' signs, 2 colors, installed."

In my vernacular Installed means hung or erected... applied means well applied. So reading that from MY prospective it meant more then how you evidently perceived it... . Either way if the S hits the fan... buyer will say 7five7 made it... it's far to many's nature to try and shift responsibility when the fans on... .

Take care.

[mopar691 281]

If your not licensed, bonded and insured and doing commercial work you are asking for trouble.

Is your property commercial? If residential do you have a conditional use permit?

Planning and zoning in my area checked my residence for equipment a few months ago as a neighbor was under the impression I was running a business from home on the side and our subdivision has covenants in place to prevent this type of activity. Considering I am in a fairly large building downtown I found this silly. But governing bodies are on the lookout lately for any fees they can collect.

[Rodger 527]

That also is location related . In Deer Lodge Tn , there are no business licenses available . Few available in Weston WV . In Crownsville , Md you have to get a permit to blow your nose .

[/b]

In my vernacular Installed means hung or erected... applied means well applied. So reading that from MY prospective it meant more then how you evidently perceived it... . Either way if the S hits the fan... buyer will say 7five7 made it... it's far to many's nature to try and shift responsibility when the fans on... .

Take care.

& if you read the the whole post , you would have read where he is installing in his garage " I would cut and install, and they would take the sign "sides" down so I could install them at my garage. So in total it would be 3 - 5' x 10' signs, 2 colors, installed " . " hung & erected " does not fit in well there , does it ?? The point I want to make is that people starting out & doing stuff for the 1rst time , don't need to worry like they would be convicts for making decals & installing,applying, applied , thrown , smeared , wippped on , glued etc . on something brought to their garage . It seems the initial concern has tangented several times . I don't care to discuss all the possibilities , just the actual question & the overkill advice . I also don't see the big deal if the sign owners said somebody else made the sign .. the sign belongs to them & is not the decal makers liability .

Peace & well wishes , this discussion has lost common sense , practicality & reality & has not been about what was actually asked . Nothing personal & don't take offense .. just my perspective .

[mopar691 281]

If a substrate is brought to your house for maintenance, resurfacing, re lettering and falls out, lands on a car or god forbid someone, you will be held liable for the damages as it was your work on the piece.

Yes it is the "decal maker's" liability when he is applying said products, cleaning, and altering the sign face in his "shop".

Please do it correct. Get your ducks in a row, insure yourself, fill out the right business paperwork. Be legal.

Just cause others want to have no overhead by not paying applicable fees, insurance and everything else that comes with running a business does not mean that you should follow their lead.

If you are doing this as a hobby, continue to do it this way but leave the jobs like this for people who are prepared correctly to handle any scenario a job like this might bring on.

[Snapper 30]

That also is location related . In Deer Lodge Tn , there are no business licenses available . Few available in Weston WV . In Crownsville , Md you have to get a permit to blow your nose .

& if you read the the whole post , you would have read where he is installing in his garage " I would cut and install, and they would take the sign "sides" down so I could install them at my garage. So in total it would be 3 - 5' x 10' signs, 2 colors, installed " . " hung & erected " does not fit in well there , does it ?? The point I want to make is that people starting out & doing stuff for the 1rst time , don't need to worry like they would be convicts for making decals & installing,applying, applied , thrown , smeared , wippped on , glued etc . on something brought to their garage . It seems the initial concern has tangented several times . I don't care to discuss all the possibilities , just the actual question & the overkill advice . I also don't see the big deal if the sign owners said somebody else made the sign .. the sign belongs to them & is not the decal makers liability .

Peace & well wishes , this discussion has lost common sense , practicality & reality & has not been about what was actually asked . Nothing personal & don't take offense .. just my perspective .

Thread header... (Pricing a 5' x 10' Outdoor Light Box). Yes I seen the they would bring the the faces to him... I did not read any where about them reinstalling. So taking the whole into account with the final line of "So in total it would be 3 - 5' x 10' signs, 2 colors Installed". He evidently has been applying vinyl to variety of object and just placing them on a face should not really require any help in pricing. So it seemed a tad more then pasting stickers on Uncle Jo's Jeep. It a move into a more professional direction. I'm not trying to rain on him at all... just suggesting he take an umbrella so he doesn't get soaked. Not taking it personal at all...

[Rodger 527]

Cool

[mabscotthandyman 1,410]

All the legistic bs and still no help with the price. I always figure time and material on a job like this. I charge a min. of $50.00 per hour plus material overhead and profit margin. Mine is probably not the conventional method but I always make good profits that's over 40 years of experience talking .