Mixed USCutter service/Copam bucket of problems/MH721 broken out of the box

[Rodger 527]

Hmmmm , JUST when I thought you had a sense of humor & was showing maturity ... I have been on the bad end on things that cost me much more & not been near as dramatic or irritated . Professional conduct applies to the consumer as much as the seller IMO . I bought the extra years worth of insurance on both of my Copams & did not even get to make a call because they have performed perfectly ... should I post , moan, groan , be dramatic & irritable .. or laugh ... that I spent $200 for nothing ( hint , I laughed ) . If I had it to do again , I would not buy the insurance ... BUT if I had problems , I would not get dramatic , moan & groan if i wound up spending much more than the $200 worth of insurance . I make my decisions & as an adult , live by them & don't expect to be treated like a kid & " everything made alright "

Unrealistic expectations would be reading the return shipping policy & then expecting different if that was needed . The return policy is in black & white .. a simple choice . There HAS been exceptions made for many customers .. but after bad-mouthing the company & it's products & acting like a kid , I would not expect good feelings . There is a better way to do things . Seems return shipping was $40-$50 on 1 thread & getting so upset & making such a negative post would make me determined to enforce the policy instead of showing an exception . many people go by the old saying " treat me good , I'll treat you better .. treat me bad , i'll treat you worse "

After you said you were looking at other sites , I said " I will be sorry to see you go .... " Now after you saying " I have nothing more to say on the subject. " .. I say , I am sorry to hear that ......

[chixwithtrix 1]

I wanted to follow up on my original posts about the Copam to be fair to all who were involved. Since then a lot has changed and I apologize for not getting back here before everything got out of hand. I've been busy with life outside of my business and now finally have a chance to do the due diligence that the support forum is all about. Please take the time to read the entire post as it will give you the full picture and hopefully help your future decisions and recommendations to others.

First off, I think everyone needs to chill out and stop 'big cocking' with their opinions or calling me or my business out or pointing fingers at each other. You don't know me, nor do I know you. I am just as much a person as the rest of you with feelings and emotions. I changed my forum name because I did not want my normal name 'chix' to be affected by these posts seeing as I've had issues with vengeful internet people in the past, but in the end it looks like it wouldn't have mattered anyway. I also know the value of proper tools, but as you will read below, you don't buy a $40,000 Snap On tool box with the latest and greatest tools to work on a weekend cruising C4 Corvette - the same goes for a vinyl business.

Some basic background on my choice to purchase the Copam originally and my business; the reason I went with the Copam as an upgrade for my business was based on the many raving reviews out there on the machine. At the time when I bought the cutter which was months ago, my little vinyl business profited under $400 a month. Based on my income level and the supposed abilities of the Copam - it seemed like the logical upgrade path rather than dropping $1800+ on a Roland or Graphtec. The Copam was hailed as having good detail work for its price level when I read about it online. While my vinyl business was very small at the time, I had loyal customers and I strive to produce a quality product. They came to me after they either were charged too much or received sub-par product from other larger vinyl operations. For many of my jobs, I've fallen into a niche market of difficult designs to cut. I kept my income low for the vinyl business up until recently because of the health hazard vinyl cutting has. The vinyl outgasses are toxic to breathe (ever get a headache from cutting vinyl?), not so toxic they will kill you with repeat exposures, but for someone who works with vinyl daily for years and years it is definitely an occupational concern. Only recently I found a solution to the inhalation and tactile exposure and have been increasing my monthly income substantially in the last couple months, partially due to the outcome you are about to read.

Fast forward to where I left off on the Copam and MH's return with my last post made in August. Here is the rest of the story:

-The MH and Copam were sent back to US Cutter. I later received a brand new Copam, hooked it up, and after a few tests realized it had the EXACT same issues the original Copam did. I was sick and tired of playing games with customer support and this machine. I'll leave the MH's story out since there really wasn't much to me being sent a refurbished one.

-I then made a very detailed video explaining the issues I was having with the original Copam that were also happening with the new one I had just received: spitting out the vinyl, having the blade skip on straight lines, and generally having unacceptable quality for the speeds it advertised. I submitted a detailed web ticket including a link to the video for a tech to look at, so that way nothing could be lost in describing the problems verbally.

-A day or two later I was contacted by Brandon Davis; US Cutter's 'Special project's Division' manager. In other words, I had finally made it to a top level guy outside the customer support call center loop. After talking with him I was much more informed and had even less faith in US Cutter's customer support call center. Brandon explained that many of the the call center people like Levi actually were not very well trained in each cutter's idiosyncracies so they 'winged it' with some of the support issues. He sincerely apologized for their customer support center and how I was run around the block so many times, because he was also frustrated with many of the employee's performances himself. He seemed very irritated with US Cutter's policies, and frankly explained that in this economy everyone wanted to be paid, but didn't want to do the work. I inferred from that that US Cutter was getting what they paid for in employee loyalty and work ethic.

-I told Brandon many times throughout the conversation when he stated something about my issues that I had been told something completely different from Levi or the other support guys. How was I supposed to solve a problem when the people trying to help me didn't have the knowledge to solve it? Fortunately with Brandon it seemed like he actually did his job and was the first person who really knew what he was talking about. I also learned that he was part of the team who actually worked on the cutters in a lab. Levi and the others in the call center did not work on the cutters themselves. Brandon could not be contacted through the tech support call loop, and he gave me his office phone number and email to contact him directly.

-I worked with Brandon for a few weeks trying to solve the Copam's issues. In the beginning he was very confident he could solve all my problems of the vinyl spitting, blade skipping on straight lines, and quality issues. He solved the spitting issue almost instantly in the first conversation. That problem was no fault of the Copam, but rather the Flexi drivers. As soon as I switched to SignCut with the current Copam driver the cutter installed flawlessly and stopped spitting the vinyl roll out the back. Brandon took the time to show me how to navigate the SignCut program and explained in detail why Flexi was a poor program to use with the Copam. I told him I wished I had been told this in the very beginning before going through the customer support ordeal with swapping the original cutter's motherboard, etc. He knew the issue right off the bat whereas none of the customer support people had any idea what I was talking about with the spitting issue.

-The next issue Brandon addressed was the blade skipping problem and this is what we spent most of our time trying to fix. In my video I went though many different speeds, pressures, and even tried a different blade holder to show how badly the blade would start skipping on horizontal lines. In the beginning Brandon seemed skeptical that it was a flaw of the Copam and that I was the source of the problem. Fine I told him, as long as he could tell me what I was doing wrong I was totally fine with that. Nobody so far had been able to tell me what to fix in either me or the machine. I told Brandon the pressures I was working with (which were very light, recommended previously by Levi to stop the blade skip). Immediately he said that was completely backwards that the cutter shouldn't even cut at those pressures. Once again, I was getting conflicting info from the customer support guys and Brandon. His first guess was that I had the blade tip too far out so he requested a photo of how far I had the blade out from the blade holder face. My depth was totally acceptable and we ruled that setting out as an issue. Next we tried a different blade holder and that didn't make a difference in the cutting.

-After days of corresponding back and fourth with Bradon doing tests on the original Copam I sent in, he determined that the skipping issue was with the 60 degree blade face I was using for detail work and the speed at which I was cutting at was too fast. Brandon explained how he had written a paper on the difference in 60 degree and 45 degree blade faces and the leverage they put on the material they cut, etc, and went though a lot of technical detail to explain why I shouldn't be using a 60 degree blade at the speed I needed. I told him that all sounded great in theory, but in reality I had been able to use a 60 degree blade in my old MH at a faster speed with no skipping issue on the same designs, so I should be able to mimic those settings on the Copam with better results. The killing blow was that I hadn't been able to do even what the MH was capable of on the Copam. Not much he could say to that.

-In the same phone call, we then had a long discussion about the engineering of the Copam. He previously had contacted one of the engineers in China about my issue and the engineer had told Brandon the bit about the 60 degree blade/speed as well and that I should slow it down and use a 45 degree blade. I reminded Brandon I had used varying speeds from slowest to fastest in the video I sent and the blade still skipped. The only thing I hadn't done was use a 45 degree blade, but using a 45 degree blade in the detailed designs I was cutting (which had some straights that cause the blade to skip) just wasn't going to work for my purpose. There was nothing in the Copam's manual or anywhere online that I had read that stated a 45 degree blade must be used at all times. Basically I told him if the Copam couldn't cut my designs with a 60 degree blade at a decent speed without skipping then the cutter wasn't doing what it was designed to do; the MH had done a better job on straights so the skipping issue was a failure of the Copam's design.

-What happened next was our aha! moment. Brandon said he had a personal Copam CP 2500 at home and never had these issues with it, but the cutting head and blade holder were a different design. His Copam was a V1 design, and mine was the updated V2 version. Ok, that explained a lot of things including people's raving reviews of the Copam's cut quality that caused me to buy the cutter in the first place. The V2 version hadn't been out as long as the V1 had been on the market and the V2 hadn't been reviewed nearly as much. Mainly because most people, like myself, hadn't known the cutter went though an update. When I went back to the online reviews, many were before the V2 came out. That also explained why an acquaintance of mine had a Copam that never exhibited these issues even doing large sign jobs with LOTS of straight lines - it was a V1 model. I'm not sure if I was supposed to know this or not, but it seems as though someone dropped the ball when the new design came out. Not enough R&D and/or there may be other factors that cause some of the V2 machines to exhibit the blade skipping issue. We stopped this conversation with Brandon stating he was going back to the lab and doing some experiments with my old machine and other Copam's that were in his lab. I sent him one of the designs I had to cut where skipping and quality issues were a concern just so he would be able to work with the same variables in the design that I had to work with.

-When I received a result a few days later it was sent from him and another tech that he had been collaborating with. They were very excited and stated that they had solved the problem though cut settings and that I was now going to be able to cut that design with confidence, speed, and a 60 degree blade. I was very excited too until I saw the sample photos they attached with the cutting results/settings. The quality of the cuts were HORRIBLE; everything was lumpy and un-defined. I looked at that and said, what the hell did they do, it looked nothing like the file I sent them! After asking them essentially that in a return email, I get something back from them stating that they are not focusing on the end product, but rather that the machine can cut the vinyl properly. That is their job, not to produce a 'sale ready' vinyl design. They are techs working with machines, not vinyl cutters operating a business. In my opinion, that is a bunch of mumbo jumbo of them covering their asses not being able to get their product to cut properly.

-However much they spouted the BS in their return email about the technicalities of their machine's cuts, they also suggested that if I was not satisfied with their final result that a positive step would be to offer me an upgrade to a more expensive machine they also distributed such as a Roland or Graphtec. While I was not happy with the fact that they were unable to get the Copam to do what it was advertised to do, they were being responsible and offering the price of the Copam as a credit towards a new machine.

-I ended up with a 24" Graphtec machine from them. I had no trouble installing the cutter, no setup issues, no hardware or setting issues, nothing. It arrived, I set it up, and was working on a job in the best quality I had ever produced within a few hours. The machine is amazing, able to produce extremely fine cuts in 45 and 60 degree blades at wide open speed. I am extremely happy with the Graphtec and the fact that US Cutter offered the upgrade to me. I was patient throughout the couple month's process (sometimes I think too patient) as was Brandon in the end bit. I have to thank him for the detailed discussions we had, I now know more about vinyl cutters than I ever expected to.

The fact remains that US Cutter and the Copam definitely have issues that they may or may not admit depending on who you talk to, but in my case they backed down and offered a money losing option to me and I have to commend them for that. That reason is why I just spent the last few hours shedding light on all the work Brandon and I went through to get this result. I hope the process I have described in these various posts will help you in your choices and future recommendations to others.

[vinylmotivations 143]

Having worked in a call center myself previously as a Tier 1 Support Rep, Call Centers by nature are a terrible beast-

I will say for starters it was at a local cable company (which shall remain nameless)...

- As a rep we were unable to use any kind of remote tools to fix issues on machines- when it took 3x as long to talk a customer through it. BUT we were expected to maintain 7 minute call times anyways... Who of you can unplug, wait 30 seconds, replug your cable or DSL modem and reboot your computer in 7 minutes, and still have time to do much else if you're already having issues?

- We were only ever given information that there was a network "outage" and never why, when or specifically where....

- Training came in the form of watching and listening to others, there was no actual informed training on anything, amen I came in with a networking and PC repair background... alot of reps did not know the differences between versions of windows and if they even knew how to turn a mac on, they didn't know how to use it.

Basically saying here, that if Levi or any of the other support reps presented incorrect information, I wouldn't be so fast as to blame them- as a phone rep at the afore-mentioned company- they only paid most folks 10$/hr and got 10/$ an hour worth of work out of them and they couldn't afford to pay people that were worth a lick. Now mind you, I have had VERY good experiences with Levi, and a few others, but none of my issues were near as complicated as your own.

I will note- it did take me 3 months to get a carriage backplate for my Laserpoint, and still have yet to get a cut-strip for it... which it was having issues that were never fully resolved before the warranty ran out. A cut strip was the next "step" in the troubleshooting but was unavailable. So in short, warranty is up and USC won't warranty the machine if there is a problem with it beyond that. Debating E-baying it and cutting my losses at this point.

It's always tough to say too when a machine goes under a complete or even partial re-work and sadly a secondary version that isn't as good as the first makes me glad I did not order one back in July! I used my 400$ LP24 until I had made enough (which only took 8 months mind you) to upgrade to the graphtec... it really is a fabulous machine as you have found. The quality is simply unmatched to almost anything. I am sure the ZenCut and Copam make nice cuts- but build quality, and operability or in some other way there is always something the graphtec can do better IMHO.

Folks with the older Copams however are mostly very happy- I do not see too many complaints on here at all about them. The ZenCut even fewer....

Just my 2cents.

[chixwithtrix 1]

VM, thank you for the post!

Yes, I do agree with you on the call center problems. I would not want any of those guy's jobs as a customer service rep or tech in a call center! They have to be the punching bag for products and/or a company that have problems that they themselves were not responsible for. For example, I know Levi and Brandon were not responsible for the Copam's driver issues in Flexi that cause it to spit the vinyl out the back. It still made me irritated that it was happening and Levi or anyone in the call center loop was not able to solve it until I got to Brandon. Those guys have a demanding and stressful job. I have never been in a call center, but I have worked in customer service. Lets just say not something I want to do again. I can feel their pain. I'm sure they don't feel like they get paid enough to put up with the things they have to day in and day out.

Having said that though, it is their job to help the customer. And in my experience that I posted about in this thread, that job was not fulfilled at times. That is the simple truth. When customers would get angry with me in my customer service job, which they did constantly, if it was something caused by me and not the product or other thing they had a problem with I went the extra mile to make it right. I was paid $6.50 an hour, minimum wage at the time. The business I worked for did have unfair policies, but I always told myself that I signed up for the job having been shown the contract and knowing the policies. I needed money and was going to follow through. If Levi, Brandon, or anyone else who works at US Cutter didn't want threads like this to be posted or have people be rightfully angry with them, then they shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. That might sound harsh, but it goes for myself and anyone else too. If you aren't going to do your job properly or hate it then maybe it's time to move on.

[AshComputers 197]

WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Good grief already! Drama, drama, drama! Ok, I get it, your mad at Levi and Brandon................ I for one have never had a problem with either one, and if I do I'll talk to them, not set on a forum all week and cry my eyes out and go on and on about it.

You'd think it was a roland or a piece of gold that was stolen, if it were me I would have taken the thing apart myself and fixed it long ago.

They aren't very hard to fix at all, and very inexpensive for parts, like I said, it's not a Roland, it's a $300.00 buck cutter. I blow more than that on junk a month ehehehheheeh

I hope this thread dies real fast, enough drama is enough already.

My 2 cents

[Frank Buckley 20]

Why is the Criticism and Complaints about USCutter here if a person who obviously had a bad experience can't post without getting bashed by what appears to be a cult like following of US Cutter? SV26 I would just move onto another cutter from a different company and cut my losses.

[Rodger 527]

Postings should be accurate . BOLD black & white policies should not be made into silly rules after buying . That is sort of like asking for the money back after you lost at the poker table . USC offers much better policies for the high end cutters , if that is what a person wants , that is what they should buy ! When you roll the dice , you win or loose & should not want to change the rules then . Intelligent , accurate posts do not get bashed . Frank , you ever think about taking your own advice

[chixwithtrix 1]

WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Good grief already! Drama, drama, drama! Ok, I get it, your mad at Levi and Brandon................ I for one have never had a problem with either one, and if I do I'll talk to them, not set on a forum all week and cry my eyes out and go on and on about it.

You'd think it was a roland or a piece of gold that was stolen, if it were me I would have taken the thing apart myself and fixed it long ago.

They aren't very hard to fix at all, and very inexpensive for parts, like I said, it's not a Roland, it's a $300.00 buck cutter. I blow more than that on junk a month ehehehheheeh

I hope this thread dies real fast, enough drama is enough already.

My 2 cents

I will reply the same way I did to Rodger in the other thread since you all seem to be in the same group:

I think you and your comrades (USC Super Hogs) have the right idea, but as with many people in the past and present, your cause looks to be corrupt or diminished by biases and opinions.

In the beginning I was angry with what was happening, wouldn't you be? Someone's true worth is not that they are always right, but can look at the past, learn from it, and adapt if needed. I'm no longer angry with my treatment, but rather reserved. With my post above I said that I do not envy Brandon or Levi, that they helped me, and in the end were not able to solve the problem. I seem to sound like a broken record here, but they moved in a positive direction and offered up the Graphtec upgrade. I respect that, however I do not respect the ways in which I was treated at some points. Which is why I took the time to post these threads.

The MH you brought up Ash - a broken cutter out of the box is not my responsibility. I paid for something to work, it should work as advertised when it arrives. I have the capability to fix it, but I didn't pay $250 for a 'build it yourself'. They remidied this issue with little fuss which was commendable, but it still interrupted my business.

You guys do sound similar to a cult following since you do not take the time to understand the other side. The fall back of USC's slogan "Always the best value" you guys finish your posts up with is weak. It seems to be your way of saying that the company you support is flawed and that saying is all you've got to defend yourselves when everything else has failed.

USC is a great value, but I'm sure they don't pay their techs to do some of the things I discussed in my posts.

[BearlyRich 167]

Attacking the 'Hogs' en-mass is probably not a wise choice!

Now after reading far too much about this, in two threads no less, I see that most folks are upset about your stating what Brandon supposedly said about Levi in a private conversation. I agree with them 100% That was just plain stupid, inconsiderate and an axe to your character!

I understand your side all too well. I spent well over $2,500 on a computerized wood carving machine that was the biggest piece of junk in the world. Can't even re-sell the damned thing because of it's reputation. It's even too heavy to be a decent boat anchor. But I never went on a tirade about like you did over on their forum. On the other hand, on their forum anything at all even just slightly negative said about their carver or company is immediately deleted... Kudos to USC for even allowing it!

Now about that supposed comment you say Brandon made... I have been involved in customer service for at least 30 odd years in one form or another. I have been in situations where I get an irate angry customer who is plain furious about the help they are getting due to some problem. First thing on the list is to chill out the customer and become their friend. Why? To calm them down and eventually solve the problem. How? By agreeing with and sympathizing with them. Every so often that involves agreeing with them that the last person they dealt with is a total dolt and knows nothing about what they are doing. It's not true and may be wrong, but it works. It's also sometimes the only way to deal with angry, irate customers... I've done this many times in the past and usually the "ignorant dolt" is sitting not far from me laughing at my comments about him. The bottom line is that not everyone knows everything about every problem. A good company will eventually hand customers off to other employees that may be able to take care of a particular problem. Especially if it's an unknown problem. It's good business and keeps everyone happy. Apparently except you! You're still angry and won't let go and you're trying to drag others into your anger. Good luck with that and I hope it makes you feel better. Your problem was solved and you told your story. That should be the end of it. Repeating what Brandon supposedly said was just outright unethical and wrong and that's why people are getting on you. You deserve it, period!

Then again, I'm just another 'Hog', so what I say probably doesn't count for much...

[AshComputers 197]

Like I said above, call us cults or what have you........ so be it. You buy cheap you get cheap. If I were buying for my business, it sure wouldn't have been an MH series, I have a LP series cutter. If I wanted to go in business making signs, I would have bought a Roland, Zencut, or some other high end cutter.

Let's face it, you bought an MH Chinese cutter, and then USC turned around and remedied your problem..... but....... you get on here and bash the tech guy's that solved your problem? I'm lost here, but there's not much respect anymore for anyone or anything these days.

I get the gist of what your saying, but then you turn around after they solve your issues and repeat what someone says about their coworker to get something started up?

I really don't follow you at all, but then again, I think I see that it's just to start drama because you finally bought a (business) type cutter, instead of a hobbiest cutter.

I'm finished with this post, it's ignorant to me.

Have a great day!

[Rodger 527]

I understand your side all too well. I spent well over $2,500 on a computerized wood carving machine that was the biggest piece of junk in the world. Can't even re-sell the damned thing because of it's reputation. It's even too heavy to be a decent boat anchor. But I never went on a tirade about like you did over on their forum. On the other hand, on their forum anything at all even just slightly negative said about their carver or company is immediately deleted... Kudos to USC for even allowing it!

A good company will eventually hand customers off to other employees that may be able to take care of a particular problem. Especially if it's an unknown problem. It's good business and keeps everyone happy. Apparently except you! You're still angry and won't let go and you're trying to drag others into your anger. Good luck with that and I hope it makes you feel better. Your problem was solved and you told your story. That should be the end of it. Repeating what Brandon supposedly said was just outright unethical and wrong and that's why people are getting on you. You deserve it, period!

Then again, I'm just another 'Hog', so what I say probably doesn't count for much...

Bear , that is exactly what I was trying to get across . You still have the $2500 hole in your butt ( I have some craters also & never went off like this ) & are not taking it like this member is taking a $800 cutter ... WHICH got him a Graphtec eventually ( at a BARGAIN price I'll bet ) . That isn't good enough , he comes back on & throws USC , Brandon & Levi under the bus & acts like it is his duty to not only tell the truth , but tattletale what he " says " was said & demean Levi . I'm sure Levi would like to respond with his honest feelings , but we all know in business , that can't happen . That is why I took exception . Right from the start this member wanted special treatment & void the black & white return policies . That shows this member is not wanting to take responsibility for the action of deciding to buy something with a return policy like that & it is apparent he will not take responsibility that tattling what he " says " Brandon said about Levi is not ethical or mature .