Rossm812

HORRIBLE first and probably LAST experience with Signcut customer support

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I recently purchased part of a sign business that and assumed that businesses equipment, licenses etc. everything to operate and fly. Included in the acquired assets was a laserpoint cutter and a license for almost another year left of signcut. I deemed it prudent to update all of the contact information for licenes, warranties... etc everything so I may be notified of updates, sales, recalls- etc. The NORMAL stuff that comes with having such a thing-- who knew right??

Well I logged into signcutpro.com and updated the email to the NEW one for the company, hmmm...  signcut swoops in and tells me my copy is no longer valid for updates or support as I was not the original purchaser. Mind you, the BUSINESS is the one that owns the license... not ME. It's a listed asset of the company. All this because I wanted to be notified of anything new with signcut and maybe, I don't know.... verify my license, how many I have... and my gosh- updates? Noooo... who wants those right?

Well apparently I am told that you can't transfer licenses and this is agains the EULA- Hmmm... ok fair enough, but nowhere does it list that you cannot change the contact information listed? or that your account on their website will magically be disabled if you CHANGE it?!?!

Ok enough ranting about that.... I then contact signcut support to see why I cant login- and this is all the information I am given. I am also told I will not recieve any further support...

The rep then goes on to say "We have been more than fair to you with regard to this issue and will cancel the license completely if the terms we have outlined to you are unacceptable to you. This is our final word on this matter." ~Basically telling me if I continue to attempt to discuss this matter they will cancel it altogether.

Anyone else have any experiences like this?;D:D

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Actually I have read the transcripts of your conversation with our support desk. You left out the part after discovering that you have been sold a license from an end user that was unauthorized to sell and the sale was in violation of the EULA that we were offered the use of that license until it expired, then you would need to purchase your own license. You also did left out the part that you were told the license you had was a lifetime license and you needed to register it using the other users email, both not true.You indicated you bought the software from someone else who was not authorized to sell it to you. We gave you the information about the license and the amount of transfers you had left in what was remaining on the subscription. You were told if you wanted further support or updates you would need to purchase your own subscription. The license in question is still active. If you wanted to straighten this out, the issue is with the person who sold you a product they legally could not sell. You could have quite simply purchased your own subscription and deducted the cost from the purchase of the business.

Our policy outlined clearly in the EULA which you were given is that Signcut can not be sold, transferred, rented, loaned. If you purchased a business from someone then you should have looked into the EULAs for any problems with transferring. The difference you are talking about to have legitimate licensed software, support, and updates amounts to about $7.50-$5 dollars a month depending on the length of your subscription. You can by a stand alone dongled version for $299. The reason software like SignCut does not permit transfers, or sales is because most of the cost associated with software after development is startup support. If we allowed transfers or third party resale of our software we would then be supporting multiple users for startup which is cost prohibitive.

I am sorry if this has caused you trouble, and hope whatever solution you happen upon you will have success in your business venture.

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Don't you just hate it when the rest of the story is told :D

Kimon and signcut are great to work with when given the chance and the rules are followed! 

As has been said many times before - Ignorance of the law is no excuse. but when you try to sway other's opinion on partial or misleading information usually you are the only one that looks bad in the end.  Que the nearest politician.

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I don't buy stuff that can't be sold,given away,transferred,ect. If I pay for something, It;s mine. If I pay for a year's use of something and for some reason, can't use it for the full year, I expect a partial refund.

This is why I don't use software that requires an  internet connection. The arrangement is good for the seller, bad for the consumer.

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While on most things I agree with you John but with software you never own it you purchase a right to use it with the developers stipulations.  In the case above the software is still active and usable with the original users email for the account.  if it was a lifetime subscription it would come with a dongle and work either way - from what I can decipher it is not a lifetime license and that is where the problem really lies.  Unfortunately many newer software titles are requiring the internet connection to use them so they can police their licences - I also like my software to work with or without an internet connection - my main cutting computer is not connected to the internet to protect from virus infection and other corruption.

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My point was..if you don't agree,then don't buy. You might not OWN the software, but you OWN the license. Like I said, it's good for the seller, bad for the buyer. Again, this is why I buy the dongle versions. The license thing is a rip-off in the long term. But VERY profitable for the seller.

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I have to agree with BannerJohn, if you pay for it, you should own it and have all rights to it.

If the software developer doesn't wish to give up their rights to the software then it is essentially a lease and should be WRITTEN in plain text so the consumer knows they're only buying the usage rights rather than have to dig through the documentation to find it buried in fine print.

If the consumer knows they only have usage rights, then they are the ones guilty of trying to sell the software they don't own.

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My point was..if you don't agree,then don't buy. You might not OWN the software, but you OWN the license. Like I said, it's good for the seller, bad for the buyer. Again, this is why I buy the dongle versions. The license thing is a rip-off in the long term. But VERY profitable for the seller.

I knew somehow we agreed - just couldn't figure it out.!  Now we are on the same track.

One thing I would suggest for Kimon is to have the Eula posted on the site - I searched and if it is there it is not easily found.  in the interest of full disclosure it should be available to read before you buy the product

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In order to purchase SignCut you need to register and download a trial license. On install the EULA is clearly displayed. It is not an unusual EULA but then of course most software users just click past the EULA and never actually read it.

I heard story of a EULA that included a $500 dollar prize for the first person to email a specific address and claim the prize, it took over a year before someone claimed it.

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See the thing is I don't MIND paying for software that I need or actually works. The thing is, I bought this fuctioning, ready to roll- needing no support or anything, business. just moved it to another computer, BAM- I am already cutting.

No setup or other support needed. I contacted support to verify the license info and change the company contact info. Not a hard concept.

Come to find out - the guy I bought everything from, had won a lifetime license, and thought this one was as well when he sold this portion of the company off to me (he obviously doesn't need 2 of them)- Neglecting the fact that it was the FREE 1 year that CAME with the plotter. Which, mind you, shouldn't have any issues as long as it stays with the plotter. If the EULA says what it does- that what it says thats fine BUT~ The point of the post was saying the gal I dealt with was RUDE... VERY RUDE, and totally nasty towards the fact I needed help. I realize she was cutting the facts out in black and white- but expressed no care, or sympathy for the fact that I was just asking questions and needed HELP. Something good customer service is supposed to provide.

PS> KIMON- Chris is still trying to get a hold of you because hes trying to get his hands on the other license so he can use it for himself, since now neither of us have a valid one to use apparently. Something about one he Won in a contest back in October? Idk, idc. Thats all between you and him.

The other thing that is frustrating is the EULA hides behind the fact Signcut is based in Sweden.... In the US, I would be allowed to, as long as I am transferring assets of a company- take that license and it would still be valid as ownership never changed as in this case.

Also being a first time owner of a small home business- I am being nailed to the wall by a company being forced to spend more money when it's not absolutely necessary- I could see if I was on their support line daily, and costing a lot of time asking questions but again, totally not the case. In the USA- I would not have had this issue with an American based company.

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  " The other thing that is frustrating is the EULA hides behind the fact Signcut is based in Sweden.... In the US, I would be allowed to, as long as I am transferring assets of a company- take that license and it would still be valid as ownership never changed as in this case.

"

I don't mean to be combative or make this any worse  :D , but what makes you think that :D  I used SignCut & I remember the rules you mention dealing with E-Mail address etc . I am of the opinion that any company in the US can set the rules of what they sell except in some government semi-controled business like BG&E etc .

The explanation Kimon gave is reasonable ... & moot anyway considering the cost of the software , especially the monthly rate . It seems what you bought & what you thought you bought are different .

Just my take on the SignCut rudeness ... your 1rst & 2nd post here plus the online demeanor I perceive  , makes me think of the old saying " you catch more flies with sugar than Sh*t " . I have found Kimon & SignCut 100%  in everything I have been involved with them ( 3 year subscription ) & everything I have read here . Sometimes it is best to call when emotions are calm . my 2 cents

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Here are the final few replies regarding the original request for support:

I wanted to find out, is it possible to change my subscription from the

lifetime dongle-less, internet required option, and to purchase a dongle to

keep my license that way???

Thanks!

##CONTACT INFO DELETED###

##REP##

SignCut USA We show two licenses registered under your contact email, one is a trial that expires on the 14th and the other is a one year free bundle that came with your plotter from US Cutters. It expires on 10/22/2011. Unless you have purchased something under a different email you do not currently have a lifetime license dongleless or otherwise.

The only version we offer as a full version is a dongled Lifetime license for $299 USD, unfortunately you can not apply a free license to the purchase of a Dongle.

Dec-07 2010 11:05.

Ross

I purchased this plotter from another individual and was told the following with the purchase of this plotter-

"Use the following information; Username (Email): ######  Password (License): ###### The initial license will be for 12 months then will it will renew for another 12 months automatically. "

and I purchased it from this individual with the understanding this was a "Lifetime" license.... By what you are saying this is NOT the case?

Also, I still cannot login to the signcutpro website.

Dec-07 2010 11:14.

##REP##

Signcut is not transferable, if you purchased it from someone other than an authorized dealer your license is not legal.

The only lifetime license available is a dongled version, as you have never purchased anything from us you do not have a Lifetime license.

We suggest you contact the person who sold you software they are not authorized to sell and ask for a refund.

As a courtesy we will not cancel your current license but if you wish to renew it you or continue to receive support you will need to either create a new account using a different email address and then make your own purchase.

### This is where they have disabled updates, support, and access to the website for the signcut account at this point, without asking any further details, I had actually not even installed the software yet. Only was trying to get information- I could have gotten a refund and just not used any of the information had they not done this- and sent everything BACK

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I like to give a honest perspective & try to be unbiased in doing so  :D . The replies from SignCut does not seem unbusiness like at all IMO . I would not have taken offense or have thought I was owed from them . I think they were being cordial . From what you have said about buying part of the business, you can still use what has been paid for at that location or by using the e-mail address it was bought/won thru :D Sign on from wherever you want with that e-mail address ( if it came with your purchase :D  was it a business item or personal property ? ) & use SignCut . With the monthly subscription being $5-$7.50 , this seems like a " principal " issue instead of a realistic issue .

You post " So I guess they are more concerned about making a buck than actually helping the customer that would like to use their product, which in my eyes has already been paid for. "

I understand your perspective & many times companies can/will accomadate a situation like this . Other times they , like you & me get dressed every morning to go to work to make money , not friends  . If they don't stay in business , there would be no benifit to you . I know a business can't lose money on every deal & try to make it up with volume with any success :D .

My advice is to use the software where the busines is that you bought into , use it where you are trying to with the screen name that was used at the time of purchase/winning the contest or pay the monthly subscription . I don't think SignCut has made it personal at all .

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See there-in lies the issue. They have basically taken the license -which apparently that is the FREE 1 year  one that came with the plotter anyways and neutered it so Im NOT entitle to any support should something not work right or an update should one come out....

Id have been happy if they said- no, its a 1 year license, it came with the plotter- k thanks! bye. My original message to them was only a fact finding one- to find out what I had and to update the contact info on the license (phone number, email address etc.)  nowhere on their site did it say that CHANGING that would immediately disable access to upgrade, tracking and otherwise all of the features that were originally included.

I would be happy to continue to use it as it was, I was even offered to take the email address as well that had been associated with it and continue to use that as well for the business, but I felt a new one would be nicer- and maybe purchase it after that year is up but what you're saying is right- it IS in fact the principal of the idea.... Like the subject of the OP was what it was about being the first and probably LAST experience with them. The way it has been handled is not conducive to my wanting to continue to being one of their customers. My local sign shop that I am working with pushes flexi hard and they have lent me a copy to use for a period of time. Pretty sure that I liked signcut better, until all of this.

My point was that I feel that the gal who handled this not only was not at all helpful to the situation, and has ruined my capabilities of even going back and recooping my lost costs on the portion of business that I purchased.

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I agree with Rodger....they were very business-like, except for one thing. It should be the  goal of any business to increase their customer base. From what I am seeing, they aren't trying to do that. Common sense..transfer the license..gain a new customer. IT's a no-brainer. The whole 'no transferable thing is just silly.Period. No logical reason for it.

If someone said to me "This is not subject to debate or discussion." or "This is our final word on this matter", or " There is nothing to discuss over the phone, You are welcome to call and leave a message on our sales line",it would be a cold day in Hell before they ever got a penny of my money. There are cheaper programs out there that do the same thing...even free ones.

I think it all boils down to their inability to understand the concept that the license belonged to the BUSINESS which you now own and you are in fact NOT transferring a damn thing.

If I were you, I'd just download the FREE version of Signblazer and forget about it. Signblazer will do things Signcut can only dream of.

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Thanks John! Finally someone understands me a little better- You basically summed it up a thousand more times elegantly than I could have worded it.

It's just so frustrating. GRRR. You're right, and maybe my local sign shop is telling me something by trying to encourage me to use flexi, just haven't had much time to play with it or even see if its fully compatible with my cutter. I am trying to come into this industry as a first-timer, and new to the whole idea of vinyl cutting. Last thing I can afford to do is buy a bunch of stuff for a business I am not sure will flourish.

I also understand Kimon on the whole monthly cost thing... but thats a monthly cost thing- UP FRONT. you can't just pay month to month and be happy- You have to either fork over +/-88$/yr or 189$ or so for 4 years... or choke up enough to afford the 300 for a lifetime license, that, should I decide this won't be a money making venture, I can't recoop anything on because it can't be transferred. ever. at least if I don't stay in contact with whomever I sell it to, and give them my email address should they ever need support because you can't change that on the license either because that would mean its changing ownership after all. The other thing is, I have read they are fairly generous on resetting the transfer count should you need to reinstall again and again on the same machine- well, I have a laptop, a dell... that OFTEN requires, windows, to be reloaded- imagine that? who knew. anyways now that this one has been invalidated I have to sit and PRAY that I can milk my installs by to make this license survive the remainder of the year or find the computer ID in the registry and reimage the machine with the same everything and mirror the registry over so that carries with.

I wasn't frustrated until I got the essentially "end of story" remarks from the rep. Agreeably I did not 100% divulge every detail to her right off the bat for her to understand that I wasn't transferring anything, but I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to justify my use to anyone other than to my financial books which are in the negative right now for buying part of a sign business from someone else, and expanding its capabilities.

I have signblazer and it seems to be kind of cheezy looking, but I am going to play with it some more to see if I can get used to it, or flexi.

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Ross, another option is to buy VE-pLXI from USC's arch nemesis signwarehouse. I have the master plus version and it IS flexi without the rip feature for printing.  great for the price - still expensive but it was worth it in my book if you are looking for a truly professional system

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Signblazer may look cheesy...but it will do the job and there are many who wouldn't have anything else. If the owner/creator hadn't died, I have no doubt at all that it would be kicking everyone else's ass right now. Rodger will tell you how good it is.

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Signblazer may look cheesy...but it will do the job and there are many who wouldn't have anything else. If the owner/creator hadn't died, I have no doubt at all that it would be kicking everyone else's ass right now. Rodger will tell you how good it is.

+1 on that - it was well on the way to being number 1.  too bad they could not have put the differences behind them and kept developing it after he died

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Signblazer may look cheesy...but it will do the job and there are many who wouldn't have anything else. If the owner/creator hadn't died, I have no doubt at all that it would be kicking everyone else's ass right now. Rodger will tell you how good it is.

 From my experience I think SignCut would have satisfied the customer & I know Kimon would have when he got involved except I strongly suspect Ross may had burned that bridge already . There was a major jerk here a year or so ago that Kimon bent over backwards for ( Me , I would not have peed on him if he was on fire  :D ) ... so i know they have the make/keep a customer attitude . I think they would be loyal & back an employee by not caving in depending on the attitude & demeanor of the potential customer . I had SignCut when I 1rst got my cutter & was satisfied with designing in InkScape , then sending it to SignCut to cut . You can design text decals in Signcut . I tried SignCut Pro out a few months ago , the weeding options are the best I have ever seen . All that said John is right I  love SignBlazer . Easy to design in & it cuts also . I have tried older versions of Flexi 8 & Flexi starter , but prefer SignBlazer by far . I did not want to " step " on SignCuts toes by posting anything about SignBlazer . I intend on subscribing to SignCut again if nothing else to take advantage of the weeding tool ( you can put a weedline anywhere you want , horizontally & vertically .

EDIT; another great feature that only SignCut offers as far as I know is the ability to make any part of the sign easily .. ex , 1 letter or any part that got messed up weeding or applying . Another great feature is having Kimon  :D

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Thanks for the insight guys... I have been playing with SignBlazer for a portion of the evening. I do like that you can import multiple jobs and lay them out with weeding lines for one big job to cut several smaller jobs all at once (didn't seem like you could even dream of that in signcut as you had to import one job, reset the origin and then cut the next job etc.) I will have to play with it more unless someone would like to point me to a good tutorial or maybe help me some night using some remote presentation software or something (which I DO have at my disposal) or idk. anything.

IMO both pieces of software has it's pros and cons, I DO use inkscape for all my artwork and designing needs, and tend to save everything in SVG format which SB doesnt seem to support, but also signcut's svg support is goofy where you have to open it, then click on import to have it actually displayed. I do like how signcut's tiles and weeding line tools work as well. The other problem I forsee, Is that I do tend on staying up-to-date with my software on my machine, and am already running Windows 7. I have my doubts if the compatibility will always be there with signblazer, whereas signcut

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Signblazer may look cheesy...but it will do the job and there are many who wouldn't have anything else. If the owner/creator hadn't died, I have no doubt at all that it would be kicking everyone else's ass right now. Rodger will tell you how good it is.

+1 on that - it was well on the way to being number 1.  too bad they could not have put the differences behind them and kept developing it after he died

  :D I agree 100% with John & Scott  :D . I am sure I am " reading " John right now  :D

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Thanks for the insight guys... I have been playing with SignBlazer for a portion of the evening. I do like that you can import multiple jobs and lay them out with weeding lines for one big job to cut several smaller jobs all at once (didn't seem like you could even dream of that in signcut as you had to import one job, reset the origin and then cut the next job etc.) I will have to play with it more unless someone would like to point me to a good tutorial or maybe help me some night using some remote presentation software or something (which I DO have at my disposal) or idk. anything.

IMO both pieces of software has it's pros and cons, I DO use inkscape for all my artwork and designing needs, and tend to save everything in SVG format which SB doesnt seem to support, but also signcut's svg support is goofy where you have to open it, then click on import to have it actually displayed. I do like how signcut's tiles and weeding line tools work as well. The other problem I forsee, Is that I do tend on staying up-to-date with my software on my machine, and am already running Windows 7. I have my doubts if the compatibility will always be there with signblazer, whereas signcut

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I recently purchased part of a sign business that and assumed that businesses equipment, licenses etc. everything to operate and fly. Included in the acquired assets was a laserpoint cutter and a license for almost another year left of signcut. I deemed it prudent to update all of the contact information for licenes, warranties... etc everything so I may be notified of updates, sales, recalls- etc. The NORMAL stuff that comes with having such a thing-- who knew right??

Well I logged into signcutpro.com and updated the email to the NEW one for the company, hmmm...  signcut swoops in and tells me my copy is no longer valid for updates or support as I was not the original purchaser. Mind you, the BUSINESS is the one that owns the license... not ME. It's a listed asset of the company. All this because I wanted to be notified of anything new with signcut and maybe, I don't know.... verify my license, how many I have... and my gosh- updates? Noooo... who wants those right?

Well apparently I am told that you can't transfer licenses and this is agains the EULA- Hmmm... ok fair enough, but nowhere does it list that you cannot change the contact information listed? or that your account on their website will magically be disabled if you CHANGE it?!?!

Ok enough ranting about that.... I then contact signcut support to see why I cant login- and this is all the information I am given. I am also told I will not recieve any further support...

The rep then goes on to say "We have been more than fair to you with regard to this issue and will cancel the license completely if the terms we have outlined to you are unacceptable to you. This is our final word on this matter." ~Basically telling me if I continue to attempt to discuss this matter they will cancel it altogether.

Anyone else have any experiences like this?:huh::)

  Sounds like you need to have a talk with the one who sold you this.  Purchase another license well worth it buy the dongle version not expiration.  Sounds fair enough you cannot get a more user friendly program with a learning curve that does a bunch of things you don't even need and not to mention you will pay double for it.

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