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scottboy1973

vinyl not wanting to stick to banner

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I'm having a problem with vinyl (Oracal 641) sticking to a banner.  I have been using home made app fluid (winshield washer fluid, alcohol, dish soap, water). I squeegee until I feel all the fluid is out and let it dry. When I unroll the banner to do further work in other areas, the the vinyl has "tunneled" in the direction it was rolled. The design is of a caterpillar made to look like cirlcles that overlap. It is one continuous piece. the "tunneling" happens at the "overlap" area where it is narrower. I'm suspecting perhaps too much soap or not enough alcohol/water in the mix. Any ideas?

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leave the washer fluid out. what kind of alcohol are you using (use isopropyl) and roll your banner vinyl out. you could also do it dry. unless it's something that really makes me nervous about a possible bubble i do mine dry.

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WOW,  I have never seen windshield washer fluid in  app spray,,  I have seen numerous recipes,  but NEVER that one.  :thumbsup:

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most have antifreeze in it..  :thumbsup::huh:  so this banner will not freeze  LOL  I just looked at my bottle it says it has antifreeze in it. 

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WOW,  I have never seen windshield washer fluid in  app spray,,   I have seen numerous recipes,  but NEVER that one.   :thumbsup:

I use it all the time with no problems. I got the recipe from an old-timer with 20+ years in the biz..but you have to get the kind with no silicone or addatives in it..just alcohol..the cheapo stuff. I get it for $1 a galon or less usually.

But in the OP's case I think the main problem is roling it IN..not out. Hard to avoid tunneling when you roll the vinyl in, no matter how you apply it.And the tighter you roll it, the more likely.

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WOW!!! That washer fluid in the mix sure got a lot of attention ASAP. Banner, you chimed in before I could dig up  your quote from an earlier post! None the less I'm having probs w/no solutions of my own.

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

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WOW!!! That washer fluid in the mix sure got a lot of attention ASAP. Banner, you chimed in before I could dig up  your quote from an earlier post! None the less I'm having probs w/no solutions of my own.

Thanks to all who have responded so far.

like me & bannerjohn said, are you rolling the banner vinyl in?? that would cause this

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yes,  but going back  and reading Banner Johns recipe,  he used the alcohol version of the windshield washer fluid, INSTEAD of the alcohol,  Scottboy used both  ,,   windhshield washer fluid AND alcohol.   does that make a difference?

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641 has a water-based adhesive.  Wet application can damage the adhesive (especially if it has more alcohol in it).

technically, the adhesive isn't made from water.  both solvent and water-based adhesives are acrylic, but solvent based adhesives have a higher quality acrylic that requires a stronger solvent to dissolve.  the cheaper acrylic can be dissolved with water and this is how it's applied to the vinyl and then the water dries out. this is why some vinyls smell a lot differently than each other.  it's the left over solvents (also part of why vinyl has a shelf life, the adhesive continues to dry out as it ages)

adding water to a water based adhesive basically tries to dissolve it again.

try using less water and waiting longer before rolling it vinyl side out or try it dry.

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It looks like the rolling of the banner may be a large culprit. I was rolling it vinyl in. This is my first banner and am learning a lot. I want to thank all for the great info to help me solve this prob.  I've learned a lot from this post. Thanks

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Another idea is to do a dry app. I almost always use dry app on banners. Very hard to get bubbles.

As for your wet solution, I don't even put soap in mine. My solution is usually about 30% alcohol and the rest water. Sometimes I'll put a drop of soap in there. Rid the windshield fluid. I use the wintergreen alcohol from DG. It's green so I can see it and  it has a nicer scent.

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Another idea is to do a dry app. I almost always use dry app on banners. Very hard to get bubbles.

i second that. i'm quicker at it and it's less messy. there's good reasons why 90% of sign shops do 90% of installs dry.

the few times i do something wet I use straight water with nothing else. less chemicals means there's less to interact with the glue. a small amount of the artificial dyes and colors will get left behind no matter how hard you squeegee. a microscopic barrier of contaminants isn't as good as nothing between the glue and substrate. the worst is dish soap because most contain silicone to help prevent food from sticking to the dish the next time you use it. well it also helps prevent vinyl from sticking to something!

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Another idea is to do a dry app. I almost always use dry app on banners. Very hard to get bubbles.

i second that. i'm quicker at it and it's less messy. there's good reasons why 90% of sign shops do 90% of installs dry.

Interesting statistic...wonder where it comes from?  based on the many I've been in, it's more like 50%. In cases of window lettering, even higher with wet.

Here's a nice article for those of you who want to learn a little about wet vs dry:

http://www.signindustry.com/installation/articles/2009-04-01-JL_Application_Fluids_for_Preparing_and_Installing_Vehicle_Wraps_Or_other_Vinyl_Graphics.php3

and here's a quote of interest:

"When it comes to high-energy surfaces, such as glass, plexiglass and acrylic, wet applications are always recommended. That’s because high-energy surfaces are attracted to pressure-sensitive adhesives."

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I said 90% of shops do it dry 90% of the time. Yes, plexi falls into that do it wet category. i don't agree with the glass thing though. that statistic comes from our 3M rep. from what I've seen on the internet, from what i've seen at shops, from what i've heard from shop employees, i'd say it close to accurate. this place is kind of an exception, but there aren't many shop employees here. 100% of sign shops use wet application on something, but I'd say 90% of them do it dry 90% of the time.  The rest of the time in rare situations they use wet application for things that wet application makes it easier and faster.

3M actually recommends doing everything dry except specific products that recommend being applied wet in the directions.

that's a nice site you linked to.

"We don

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Oh,dear..the gallons of app fluid I've used over the year and the hundreds of banners and coroplast..all wrong. Funny how I've not had a single customer come back to me and say something failed. I guess what happens in the real world doesn't count. I'm doing repeat business for customers who tell me they still have my banners out there after 5 years in all sorts of extreme weather with no problems at all.

One thing I will comment on:

“If you use the wet method of application, you are going to have problems no matter what.”

That's just plain bullshit.

I'm happy that you have time to look up all that stuff. That's the difference from working in  a sign shop and owning one, I guess.

WE've had people come and go who preached the dry method and tried to put down those who do it wet. None of them stayed long.

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Did I say you were wrong?  Where did I say that?

Did I put you down?  did I bash wet?

FYI, not only do I have a day job, but I also run my own business on the side.  Registered with the state, collect taxes, etc.  So I do both.

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Did I say you were wrong?  Where did I say that?

Did I put you down?  did I bash wet?

yes,pretty much..in this post and others.

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Give it up John - I work with lots of people who just like to argue no matter what.  and we have Experts on everything there too

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i'm sorry you feel that way, but i'm not.  don't take it personally man.  unless you and wet application method are married you're way too sensitive dude.

I am sensative..to the needs of the newbees on this forum..and when anyone tried to push the dry method to people who have only just learned to make cuts..it bothers me. many of the people here are trying to supliment their income and money for them is tight. Wasting vinyl or doing a bad job and losing a potential customer isn't a good thing. You have your day job to pay your bills. Many do not. DRy application takes lots of practice and I never tell a newbee to attempt it on a paying job. Or to practice on someone else's dime. I spend a fair amount of time re-doing lousy dry apps from others in my area..and I see a lot of dry apps that look so bad it's pathetic. THings not lined up.bubbles galore, wrinkles, you name it. I see the worst of dry apps all the time. Wet apps, if sone correctly, are pretty much fool-proof.

and,Dakota...you are right..arguing is pointless.. I learned that from Dark Dan (late of this forum) who wrote the book on dry instalations. So, that is all I am going to say.

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I've been in the sign business for my self for 14 years and I do 98% dry.  I do agree that it takes practice and someone to teach you.  It will be faster when you learn to do it.

I started wet to though.

I have seen it done perfectly both ways.  No need to argue.

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