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tbenefi33

protecting artwork

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Hello everybody I was seaching on here on copy right info so far I gathered watermarking, and disable the right click where they can't save the image is good ideals how do I get a good lawer to copy right my artwork that't won't cost me an arm and a leg, hate to use lose my arm then I can't draw.  :thumbsup:

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Read all the other copyright threads on here.

"Disabling" right-click doesn't work on firefox, and it can be beaten with a screenshot or a skilled designer any way.

If you truly believe you have a very unique design that is going to be stolen, pay the money to get it copyrighted, but don't count on it carrying water unless you have the cash to back up the subsequent infringement claims.

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I have a friend that puts the code to stop right clicking into the html for his ebay listings . . .within 2 minutes I emailed him the code for his new listing by highlighting the page and selecting view source - then copying it.  I have done the same thing to him on pictures by highlighting them and a simple ctrl c  - ctrl v  (copy and paste) - just showing him things are not that easily secured.  I am just a casual user so I am sure there will always be a way for some enterprising young hacker to get about anything.  I don't condone it just don't try to fool myself either.  If its that good I just don't post it!

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You will never stop a skilled designer by disabling right-click. Screen shot, Photoshop, CNTRL-N, CTRL-V done. Images are going to be downloaded, and nobody here should confuse a downloaded image with copyright violation.

Now, the real issue is whether you lose sales or worse, if someone uses *your* art to sell it in any form without any permission from you or money in your pocket. The only time you really need to worry is if you catch someone selling your art...then you can pursue legal options.

You do not need a lawyer for copyright! All you need to do is make the art, and the copyright follows you. If there's a lawsuit, you would probably need to show 'prior art' but it would be easy to prove you're the artist in many ways if it ever goes to court.

Read this basic copyright primer from copyright.gov if you like:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf

Here is an excerpt:

Who Can Claim Copyright?

Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created

in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship

immediately becomes the property of the author who created

the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights

through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

Hello everybody I was seaching on here on copy right info so far I gathered watermarking, and disable the right click where they can't save the image is good ideals how do I get a good lawer to copy right my artwork that't won't cost me an arm and a leg, hate to use lose my arm then I can't draw.   :thumbsup:

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Flash or Java is about the only way to actively prevent someone from stealing your artwork. The thing to remember is that Security measures are only there to keep out the HONEST thieves. If someone really wants it, it's gonna be had. I know enough about computers and coding to get just about anything I could possibly want, but scruples prevent me from stealing anyone's art work for profit. Just not right.

Ummm now where is your artwork displayed on the web................:thumbsup::D  :D

Kevin

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Thank you

Yap all they security in the world there all way somebody better that can get in bummmer.

Seem like they ought to come up with a programe that can tell you what system (who) is stealing your art work and you can then go after the individual person. Say for instance you on line looking at you business and all of a suddent a warning comes up such and such at this place is trying to steal your art work.You find there name on the net easy and call him or her up and scare them with a law suite.

With all the programers out there it may be possible but you would have to someting to get by the firewall and other security that are out there.

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That wouldn't work, because copyright does not prevent a person from using it for personal use. Because then it doesn't infringe upon your right to income. They could argue, they wouldn't buy it if they didn't make it for themselves.  The copyright is only going to be a real issue if someone tries to market it for money (profit). This has been hashed to death on teh web, there is an extensive thread on it in this forum.

It's worth a read.

Kevin

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This is a bit of a thread hijack.

I've been contemplating the many "how do I save my art work discussions"  The truth be told YOU CAN'T. If you post it someone will copy it.

You puff your chest up and say "I'll sue that guy".  Yeah right... MUCH easier said than done, and 99% of the people who sell copywritten stuff know that.  Riddle me this Batman... what is to stop the guy from posting it on a website (under a fake name) claiming it's free for public use, then using it.  He's got the website article saying it's free and you have to hire a bunch of lawyers to prove him wrong.  Or even coming up with a fake reciept that he DID infact purchase the artwork from that same person and YOU are the one who copied it.   It's not easy for one of us to sue someone for infringment.

I'm getting to my larger point and what I've been noodling over...

How much do you sell designs for?  How much do you sell custom artwork for?  How many of those do you expect to sell?  10..20...30?  At that rate you will only sell to the people who: 1) mange to find you, and 2) generally like your design.

Now on the other hand. Lets say 10 people in your citystate copied your design and it was on every car (think calvin peeing here).  How many more decals would you sell because it was "cool and everyone has it"??

Your never going to be able to stop someone from either flatout copying, or using something very similar, if the guy never offers it on the internet they have a 99.9999% chance of usingselling your artwork without ever being caught by you.  Once they copy it and start selling it and it's showing up all over the place, 10 more people will copy it.  Hope you have a very large pool of money to throw at those lawyers.  Oh you don't need a lawyer?  A letter from Tom, Dick and Harry's Graphics won't stop anyone, your going to atleast have to pay a lawyer to send the letter.  Do you file in thier state, or your state?  Do you know the law in thier state?  That makes it that much tougher without a lawyer.

I guess it all boils down to what you want to do with your art.  If you want to be Van Gogh, then posting your artwork in a public forum might not be that wise.

If you want to be know for a cool design that was "all over the place" then post according.

YMMV

azdecals

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What you have too remember, is that once you sell your artwork: IT' OUT THERE!!!!!!

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In my Business Law class, they said once you design something, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself.  That way, the US Governement stamps a date and time on the envelope when they're shipping it to you.  This proves when you designed it.  Don't open the envelope until you need to (maybe in court).

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This is a bit of a thread hijack.

I've been contemplating the many "how do I save my art work discussions"  The truth be told YOU CAN'T. If you post it someone will copy it.

Over and over I've stated that COPYING does not equal selling illegally.  

You puff your chest up and say "I'll sue that guy".  Yeah right... MUCH easier said than done, and 99% of the people who sell copywritten stuff know that.  

I fight my tickets and win. The court-system does not scare me, though it might scare others. Thieves of course rely on the fact that people might not bother to use the legal system, right up until the time they find themselves in small-claims court, or worse. Yes, it sucks to sue people, but it's gonna be way worse for the thief when he's caught. The person suing for infringement knows this and is willing to run the thief through the ringer, especially if he ignores a cease and desist letter.

Riddle me this Batman... what is to stop the guy from posting it on a website (under a fake name) claiming it's free for public use, then using it.  He's got the website article saying it's free and you have to hire a bunch of lawyers to prove him wrong.  Or even coming up with a fake reciept that he DID infact purchase the artwork from that same person and YOU are the one who copied it.   It's not easy for one of us to sue someone for infringment.

LOL. Ok, so the thief will have a large body of artwork spanning 20+ years? I would. Would the thief be able to stop the plaintiff's lawyer from using a subpoena to get real IP info? No.

I don't care how anonymous a thief thinks he is....anyone can find out who you are merely by your IP info (and other methods) and any info you gave to your ISP is freely available once it's needed in a lawsuit. I guess those kids who got nailed by the RIAA thought they were being clever too, till they were made examples of and they were just downloading songs for themselves (and probably sharing them too). Copyright infringement even holds up when there is *no profit* by the person making the infringement.

You think just because an artist doesn't have millions of dollars that he can't or won't sue for copyright infringement? In fact, you're probably more likely to get sued because the injury to him would be far greater than some rich company.

I knew a co-worker who went to jail because he admitted to some crime on a BBS...he thought he was confessing anonymously. I think he thought he was safe too, he wasn't.

It's very easy to sue for infringement if it's clear. Screengrab every relevant page on a thief's storefront if the thief is that blatant, use as evidence...and screen grab the thief's entire collection of illegal, copyrighted artwork they're selling to establish a pattern. Record and use as evidence every interaction with the thief (email, forum posts) especially if they admit it and get nasty about it thinking they're untouchable. It's the arrogance of criminals which makes them easy to catch and prosecute.

If the thief commits perjury in court and tries to claim it's his, any smart lawyer will ask to see his body of art. In fact, they might ask him to draw right there in court against the real artist....there are many ways to expose such a simple ruse. Once found-out, the thief is established as a liar and would probably be found guilty, not to mention be guilty of lying under oath, a serious crime. Man, you must think both thieves, lawyers and judges are all really, really stupid.

I'm getting to my larger point and what I've been noodling over...

How much do you sell designs for?  How much do you sell custom artwork for?  How many of those do you expect to sell?  10..20...30?  At that rate you will only sell to the people who: 1) mange to find you, and 2) generally like your design.

Now on the other hand. Lets say 10 people in your citystate copied your design and it was on every car (think calvin peeing here).  How many more decals would you sell because it was "cool and everyone has it"??

Your never going to be able to stop someone from either flatout copying, or using something very similar, if the guy never offers it on the internet they have a 99.9999% chance of usingselling your artwork without ever being caught by you.  Once they copy it and start selling it and it's showing up all over the place, 10 more people will copy it.  Hope you have a very large pool of money to throw at those lawyers.  Oh you don't need a lawyer?  A letter from Tom, Dick and Harry's Graphics won't stop anyone, your going to atleast have to pay a lawyer to send the letter.  Do you file in thier state, or your state?  Do you know the law in thier state?  That makes it that much tougher without a lawyer.

Sounds like you don't agree with copyright law, or think it's ok to defeat it because some people get by with it? Yeah, it's a pain in the butt to sue people, sure, but all it takes is one motivated artist and proof that it was being sold illegally. If I were famous and everyone wanted my image I probably wouldn't need to sell decals for money, ironically enough.

I guess it all boils down to what you want to do with your art.  If you want to be Van Gogh, then posting your artwork in a public forum might not be that wise.

Again, you're basically saying it's ok to steal it because it's there. No, it's not. All someone needs to do is show that the person being sued is selling the art illegally. Everyone else is a different issue. 'Everyone else' doesn't matter when it's your name on the legal paper and your bum in the defedant's chair.

And remember, don't confuse 'downloading' with 'selling illegally'. Two different things.

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My point was that if "how do I protect my art work" was your problem, then you probably shouldn't post it on the internet.   :thumbsup:

azcecals

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And my point was that a picture on the Internet isn't a free-for-all to steal and use as your own. Copyright law still holds. :thumbsup:

To reiterate, downloading does not mean copyright infringement, two different things here.

My point was that if "how do I protect my art work" was your problem, then you probably shouldn't post it on the internet.   :thumbsup:

azcecals

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I was talking to someone about this: The question arose; He said "Copyright only protects the medium it's created in." can that be right? So I create an original work on paper or even published on the Internet. Does that copyright protect the author for someone who creates a banner?

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I'll repeat what I said on the second post of this thread:

"If you truly believe you have a very unique design that is going to be stolen, pay the money to get it copyrighted, but don't count on it carrying water unless you have the cash to back up the subsequent infringement claims."

You are right about filing suit against an infringer, Nukleon, but at what cost?  A case involving the details you theorize (asking for the infringers body of work, asking them to draw in court....) would easily cost upwards of 10K. 

On the other hand, you are going to have to show what the actual and potential damages caused by the infringement amount to.  In the case of a designer that may be selling vinyl, etc online and offline, what would those amount to, above and beyond the total revenue brought in by the infringers sales?

Granted, in certain circumstances, this may be the wise move (i.e., Bill Watterson going after a HUGE ebay seller possibly), but in most cases, it's not going to be worth the attorney fees.  You'll have to decide if it's worth your time and money to pursue it in small claims.

This is why stock art has gotten so much cheaper in recent years.  It wasn't that long ago that Getty was getting $100+ for a single image.  Now, you can get all the same stuff and more from istockphoto.com and others for less than $10, legally.

Designers and photographers know that copyright suits are costly and don't have a good ROI (and people will simply steal what they want), so they sell their designs in a very useable format, for a price that the market will bear.

In my Business Law class, they said once you design something, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself.  That way, the US Governement stamps a date and time on the envelope when they're shipping it to you.  This proves when you designed it.  Don't open the envelope until you need to (maybe in court).

This is called the poor man's copyright and it won't work in the US.  You could just send yourself an empty envelope and put whatever you wanted in there when the situation arose.  Steam an envelope open, etc, attorneys will destroy this argument.

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You are right about filing suit against an infringer, Nukleon, but at what cost?  A case involving the details you theorize (asking for the infringers body of work, asking them to draw in court....) would easily cost upwards of 10K.  

I would attempt to have the client settle out of court, or at least obtain a lawyer long enough to scare the client into paying my fee. Failing that, and with blatant enough copyright violation, I would look for Pro Bono representation or pursue the matter myself.

If someone is truly stealing your art, it would hard for them to mount a good defense if you can prove it's your art and show a paper trail where you asked them to cease and desist or whatever. I think most people who steal art think nobody is going to do anything about it, but we also hear stories of people being contacted by companies demanding payment and usually, the infringer pays up to avoid a lawsuit.

Who would honestly let a case go to court where there's clear copyright violation? It would be as simple as,

'Sir, is this your art?'.

'No'. (Admission of guilt here).

'Rightful owner, is this your art?'.

'Yes. Here are my preliminary sketches, first-publishing, high-rez proofs, business cards, people I spoke to about the idea, my company partner, Fictitious Business Name filing, etc'.

'Defendant, did you obtain permission to use this art?'

'No...I thought it would be ok...'.

'Rightful owner, did you give permission for this art to be used/licensed and were you compensated in any way?'

'No. Here are pictures of the copyright violation (hands them to Bailiff)'.

Judgement for the plaintiff, fine of $5000, etc. etc.  

I know this is simplified, but it would be an admission of guilt or perjury for the defendant, since the evidence is visual, not anecdotal. There's a visual piece of art, the rightful owner of said art with history, the proof in photographs of unfair use, and the defendant being forced to admit it's not his art, and without any agreement giving permission to use it (no contract).

So, yes there's a cost to pursuing a lawsuit but it would be a pretty decisive case, in my opinion. If the theft is blatant enough it makes the legal option that much more damning for the defendant. If it's minor, a 'cease and desist' along with the threat of a lawsuit a small settlement would probably work.  

I am fairly certain that most people selling 10 dollar decals don't want anything to do defending unfair use of copyrighted art in court. ;)

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And my point was that a picture on the Internet isn't a free-for-all to steal and use as your own. Copyright law still holds. ;)

To reiterate, downloading does not mean copyright infringement, two different things here.

My point was that if "how do I protect my art work" was your problem, then you probably shouldn't post it on the internet.   ;)

azcecals

Nuk, you are right. But the truth is that if you don't want to risk having it stolen, don't put it online. I can walk to the restroom in my favorite bar and leave my wallet with all of my cash on the table. But if someone takes it, I have to live with it.

Charlie

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the best way to prove that you are the origional owner, is to put the creation date on the item and then mail it to yourself. this way when you have to goto court for the claim, you persent a postmarked envelope to the court with your image in it. this way you have a goverment dated envelope that shows the origional date of creation.

that is all you have to prove you were the first to create the image.

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Nuk, you are right. But the truth is that if you don't want to risk having it stolen, don't put it online. I can walk to the restroom in my favorite bar and leave my wallet with all of my cash on the table. But if someone takes it, I have to live with it.

Charlie

A better analogy is, music. It's like asking musicians not to make music if they don't want it pirated. I agree that's it's too easy to pirate music (or art), but that doesn't mean a sufficiently motivated artist won't come after you for damages if your copyright violations are blatant enough.

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    I didn't say they couldn't be persued for the theft. I simply said that there is no way to know if it has been misused unless you get lucky. The very nature of the internet makes it entirely too easy for people to take what they want with relative anonymity. I can route my connection through several countries and get what I want. There is no way my IP would be traceable. Some countries simply won't share the information. If I was going to steal something of value over the internet, I would take the time to reduce my odds of being caught.

    If someone steals a graphic from a website, there is no guarantee that they are even in a location with the same laws that protect us here in the US. If someone in Europe decides to steal your image and sell it on EBay, there isn't much that can realistically be done.

Charlie

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    I didn't say they couldn't be persued for the theft. I simply said that there is no way to know if it has been misused unless you get lucky. The very nature of the internet makes it entirely too easy for people to take what they want with relative anonymity. I can route my connection through several countries and get what I want. There is no way my IP would be traceable. Some countries simply won't share the information. If I was going to steal something of value over the internet, I would take the time to reduce my odds of being caught.

    If someone steals a graphic from a website, there is no guarantee that they are even in a location with the same laws that protect us here in the US. If someone in Europe decides to steal your image and sell it on EBay, there isn't much that can realistically be done.

Charlie

Well any theft is moot if it isn't discovered (but the risks are still there if discovered). Chances are if it's small-time theft (such as personal use), the rightful owner may not discover it. I am not really trying to predict who will discover what, so much as legal recourse for rightful owners.

If it's blatant theft where the person is trying to profit from stolen artwork (to use your EBAY example) it's more easily-discovered and there's likely more grounds on which to sue. The rightful owner doesn't have to discover the violation himself, either. Kevin Bacon could discover it, tell someone and six people later the rightful owner would hear about it. LOL :)

I would imagine EBAY would have something to say about that user's account status if a rightful owner could prove the alleged thief was selling products made with stolen artwork. EBAY has their own standards to uphold, especially if *they* are liable in any way.

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    EBay would probably send a notice to the offender. And might even kill their account. But, the damage would be done and the person could create another account as quickly as EBay could kill the first one. I have been scammed by an EBayer who changed names three times in the time it took me to get a resolution. He actually listed the same item, with the same photos (with the same furniture in the background) and the same description - verbatim.

    In a nutshell, you really can't stop a dedicated thief.

Charlie

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    EBay would probably send a notice to the offender. And might even kill their account. But, the damage would be done and the person could create another account as quickly as EBay could kill the first one. I have been scammed by an EBayer who changed names three times in the time it took me to get a resolution. He actually listed the same item, with the same photos (with the same furniture in the background) and the same description - verbatim.

    In a nutshell, you really can't stop a dedicated thief.

Charlie

All I am saying is that rightful owners have the law on their side, and this affects many avenues which control the methods by which thieves might try to sell your artwork. Like anything, it takes vigilance, moreso if your art is somehow very popular. Then again, if you're the type who has very popular art, you probably have the money to chase down the most flagrant violators and make examples of them (and perhaps some experience with this).

I am also not suggesting in any form that we can ever eliminate theft of art, music or even crime itself. One just has to be vigilant about protecting one's interests, and the law is on the side of the rightful owner. A clever copyright owner can find numerous ways to make thieves miserable, once a copyright violation is discovered.

Much of this has to do with your outlook...we know there are scammers out there...but how you deal with them is largely based on your personality. Personally, I am not afraid of conflict (as some of you know) and I would enjoy making a thief miserable with any legal recourse I have available. Someone else might be more defeatist about this, and so be it. There is a legal system and it's not too intimidating once you learn how to use it. Some civilians even get rather good at it.

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    I understand that the blatant taking of an artist's work is illegal and that the law (generally) supports the artist. But, I am enough of a realist to determine that if someone wants to take it - they will. There are laws that prohibit burglary, robbery and murder as well - but criminals undertake those activities daily worldwide. Unlike criminal law enforcement, the average person does not have the means to protect their copyrighted material exclusively.

    Additionally, the US Copyright office has never fully addressed the doctrine of fair use. So it is a very shaky area to litigate. For example, I can legally copy your fish logo and place it on a website that either praises the design or makes derogatory statements about it. The current US Copyright laws would permit me to have your art on my site indefinately. The traffic generated to my site by having your artwork on it would be considered incidental and not subject to any compensation to you.

    The above is one example of fair use that is permitted that would generally irritate an artist. I understand that I cannot sell your artwork, but I could charge a "subscription fee" to my site that critiques your work. In this instance, you would not be entitled to compensation for the use of your work. (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf - page 19, Section 107).

      In summation, while copyright laws do protect an artist's work, there is no reasonable way to determine when one's copyright has been infringed upon other than through sheer luck of the draw. There is no way to know which visitors to your site have used your artwork illegally and who has not. If you elect to publish your artwork on the internet, every person who visits your site downloads the image. Once it has been downloaded, there is no way to control what is done with it until after the fact.

Charlie

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