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john!

Thinking about closing down

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Well, I'm thinking about closing down my home based business doing vinyl.

It just seems that (no offense) but every tom, dick and harry is buying a machine and ruining the industry. Overhead must be killing these people who are in a no-vinyl related industry. It's like "Come to Joe's taxi and mechanics service, we can haul you around, fix your engine and make decals for you"

Another thing that's making me go toward closing is the amount of customers who make 10's of thousands a month but yet want to say pricing is too high or they don't need promotion ect so they end up doing nothing. I'm just tired of getting no business due to these conditions around my area anyway. It's like how do you get customers to actually buy instead of nagging about this and that.

Business has been BOOMING the last 2 months but it's still frustrating to me because of the 2 main issues I've been seeing. It seems that every week there is more and more stress.

Heck just today a customer who always nagged about prices, wanted free shipping all the time ect told me that they just got a machine and am now doing their own. Another customer said that my prices were too high and that a guy down the road was cheaper but they haven't gotten anything from him. Just alot of time wasting.

I just needed to vent i guess  ;D

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The way i see it we'll l have to change as the industry changes That's why my next goal is a decent wide format  printer  to stay ahead of the wave of people buying the cheap cutters and getting in the biz.It was only a matter of time before a lot of people had these given the low price point price.And if people getting in business is ruining the industry I'm going to play devils advocate and say what of the companies who sold them the cutters at such a low price lol...Also there's always skill and quality which i will keep mine at the highest level possible a lot of these other people getting in will not..

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The way i see it we'll l have to change as the industry changes That's why my next goal is a decent wide format  printer  to stay ahead of the wave of people buying the cheap cutters and getting in the biz.It was only a matter of time before a lot of people had these given the low price point price.And if people getting in business is ruining the industry I'm going to play devils advocate and say what of the companies who sold them the cutters at such a low price lol...Also there's always skill and quality which i will keep mine at the highest level possible a lot of these other people getting in will not..

Yeah but to be realistic everyone uses about the same vinyl, either Avery or Oracal and even if you use lower grade, nobody cares. Everyone is so set on price and nobody cares about anything else.

I deal with small time orders so maybe that's why im getting it alot but dang, it really sucks.

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Several years ago,when I had my upholstery shop a local furniture manufacturing company closed down.All of a sudden there were upholstery shops popping up everywhere.. Piece work upholsterers thought they knew it all. Well, it didn't take long before those upholsterers were calling me looking for a job. Why? because they didn't have the experience and do the quality of work that I did. I oulatse them all,until my health started failing.

When I first started selling vinyl on abay, I was ONE OF 3. Now,too many to count. Anyone with the money to buy a digital printer is selling banners for peanuts. Yet, I still sell more than they do,my plain vinyl cut banners. Why? My experience and quality of my work.

I don't think I'll give in just yet. Besides, I don't have the luxury..this is my living. Let the hobbiests have their fun..I will be here long after they have listed their cutters and stock on Craigs List.

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That is the wave of technology . I have seen it in all types of  business over & over again , several I was in . Like what was said  , digital printers are the wave now & are what vinyl cutters used to be .That is why I have 2 cutters , affordable enough to do what I want , the way I want it done & can redo at my whim . A buddy I have known since I was 11 has had a vinyl cutter for at least 30 years & knows what you are saying.. he almost bought a digital printer , but I got him to rethink that . cheaper to outsource that & do the cheap easy jobs with his cutter . John is right , similarly WD-40 is a pretty big outfit , but only makes WD-40 .

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Life has taught me that things come in a series of threes/ just watch the ocean. You will always need three trades to survive . I am an Auctioneer / the last auction we did was $2200 in signage. They screwed the order that could have brought us up to $15,000 in fines with the Real Estate Commission. Promises to correct .... unkept. We had to pull em down right after the sale , the huge sold banners arrived the next Thursday, 6 days late. I did not receive any referral's from a successful sale,  but I sure got to pay the $2200 . Its cheaper to just bite the bullet and Visa a cutter. You can only be a link in a chain / never the whole chain. Gooddeal

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My buddy bought a Roland cutter 30 some years ago ( still using it BTW ) .. was $7,500 with whatever Flexi version software . I paid $600 each for the Co-Pams & they are far superior to his & what another buddy bought from SW for $3K 2 years ago ... He was very pissed when he seen what I bought a month after he made the splash .. I was minutes away from buying that same package when I thought of looking on E-Bay & found USCutter . I think anybody can make a decent living or better with a cutter & will be able to for a long time.. justthe mystique & expense has been uncovered  ;D

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Guest fivestar

I'm looking at getting a wide format printer, but I've never been busier then I am right now in regular vinyl.

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John, How are you getting the word out and getting business, not just now but when you started making it decent with being steady?

I just can't figure out how to get customers to buy when there is low ballers all around, how do you get them to pick you even with a  higher price over others?

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IMO  & experience , loyal customers that are satisfied & know the service & quality they get , remain loyal even if prices are tempting elsewhere . New prospective customers assume they are getting at least a quality standard that is acceptable in the business & would rather pay less ( as most consumers including me ) . Supply & demand controls prices . As you said , there is a flood of people buying vinyl cutters , many just to do their own stuff . You & I are part of the flood to people who have been in the business for years . Vinyl decals were much more expensive years ago .That is why I don't do much excavating or septic system work anymore . Competition drove the profit out of it  . When people seen the profit installing a septic tank etc , they went into that business . Also employees were trained by companies , then left & became competitors . John has posted his experience & philosophy in several of your " price " threads . It gets into the " meat & potatoes " type of work .. instead of just the " gravy " part .

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Well, since i made the post there is 1 more local who is getting a cutter and another 2 locals who are getting one also.

This market is so saturated anymore

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John! ,

As cheap as it is to get into a vinyl cutter & as much fun as it is , I am not surprised at all of the saturation . Everything is saturated now .. IF it isn't more competitors , it is a lack of business available . People are not spending any money unless they really need to & won't until the economy changes from very gloomy to promising IMO & experience . I have been thru several of these bouts , but none as bad as this 1 . I started moving-removing Mobile Homes ( evictions ) for a 630 unit Mobil home park & a couple more smaller parks a few years ago . Business is terrible & not many evictions being carried out as there is not a waiting line of people wanting that lot to put a new home on . It takes specialized trucks & equipment .There are VERY few that are set up to do what I am doing right now . When things get going , I sure I will get a bunch of competition .  Many business will go under ... the people who make the most of it by tightening the proverbial belt will still be in business whenever it gets better . Those not afraid to beat the bushes for work & price it competitively will fair better than those who don't . It is a buyers market right now .  :)

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I've been in the embroidery business for over 17 years now, and just bought a cutter so I could add twill with some basic signage. Business cycles like these come about every 3 - 5 years it's really nothing new. The real issue is the depth of this recession. It just doesnt seem to end! My business was hit with low price competition from overseas- It used to be I could get $19/1000 stitches digitizing and embroidery starting at $5.00. Now I'm almost giving away the digitizing at $30.00 flat rate and embroidery as low as $1.50! It's getting to the point that embroidery is at the prices screen printing was when I started! I've made a choice to offer high quality premium services and returned to my prices 5 years ago. If the client wants to wait 3 weeks and ship  from china then fine go, but when the order gets screwed up because of bad thread colors or inferior quality then don't come running to me to match prices, sorry you made your bed.

On a positive note (positive for me) When a client uses overseas manufactures they almost always loose market share because they can't meet customer deadlines, quality and order changes (dynamics).

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Lost ANOTHER customer before the week ended thanks for a automotive shop who is now a vinyl specialist  :-

Lets poop all over john this month  :)

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Most of my business is repeat and referrals. People come to me mostly because my prices are low (not too low) and because I do good work and meet their deadlines. If someone wants a sign tomorrow, I manage to get it for them,even if I have to work til late at night. They remember it.And I don't charge extra for rush jobs. They remember that too.

When I was first starting out, to get business I would go to festivals, flea markets, or just drive down the road. If I saw someone that needed a sign or a better sign, I stopped and talked to them. ALL of them were surprized at my prices...they were used to the local signs shops and their inflated prices. I almost always left with an order,and a repeat customer too. Back then, a 2x10 banner was going for $150 locally and I was doing them for $80 (my cost $14) and making about $40 an hour. Once I rel them in,and they become regulars...I could always raise the prices gradually and blame the cost of supplies going up.

Honestly, a lot of people are afraid of even asking a sign shop for a quote because they think it's gonna be high..and it usually is.

Another thing..I don't usually charge extra for more than one color, or shadows,things like that. I figure that in from the start/

In essance..if you treat people RIGHT and don't try to be greedy they will keep coming back.

Or,as some do, you could sit around watching YouTube all day waiting for that one big job to come in,and lose your ass.

Don't give up,John...that is what they are hoping you will do. Quality,service,and experience is what you have to offer. The others can't offer that. Buying a cheap cutter doesn't make you a sign guy. Experience does.

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Guest sciondrgn

I'm just a local guy, Do everything out of my home in my spare time.. We have 4-5 big shops here and just about everyone ive talked to that does business with me says the same things.. the big shops don't treat them right and they all over charge.. Most of the shops have gone the way of full color and wraps and they don't like to touch the small stuff anymore.. or want some crazy minimums.

I just keep the price low and the best service I can give and I have tons of repeat customers..

Regardless what field you work in, there will always be competitors whether its a big outfit or someone in there garage.. You gotta kill them with kindness and offer better service

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Dragons right, the small jobs the big guys don't want are a new market, and if you were to sell up, in this climate you would get about a 1/4 to 1/2 of what's worth. I cut everything back several years ago, I could have sold everything for peanuts, but it was something I loved to do and thought I would be happier just cutting the odd job rather than none at all.  Now I just pick and chose the jobs, the ones I want, I chase, the others I let go.  Don't get too depressed everyone is in the same boat.  Quality and service are the what people look for in a business, so keep that up and best of luck John.

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I'm sad to see the responses to this post. Most of you talk about keeping the prices low and how shocked you're customers are to hear how much lower you are than the sign shops.

That's exactly the problem with the industry. Sign shops who have put time and money into their business who have the best equipment, employees, a shop, can't make it anymore. These are guys that actually know the sign industry too. They've been in it for years. They know what 'second surface' application means, they know the benefits of negative space, they have a good design team or know how to design themselves, they understand how to install signs properly, which materials will last under certain conditions, etc.

I'm not saying this to disrespect anyone here, but try to see things from the other side. Many in the industry think that the sign world has been ruined because of people going around and undercutting them. Sure, you're making money now, but what about if you wanted to grow a bit? What about the day you want to expand and move into a shop? Or hire an employee? Or buy some new equipment? Are you going to raise your prices then? What will happen to all of the customers you have that are only with you because your price is so cheap?

Please don't sell yourselves short! And please take the time to learn the industry, not just vinyl, learn about what makes a good layout. Learn why negative space, contrast and balance are important.  Making decals is one thing, and if that's your cup of tea, great! But designing and fabricating a sign that is going to be viewed by thousands or millions of people and that becomes a part of our urban landscape is quite another.

Again, I'm not saying this to offend anyone, just some food for thought.

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I'm sad to see the responses to this post. Most of you talk about keeping the prices low and how shocked you're customers are to hear how much lower you are than the sign shops.

That's exactly the problem with the industry. Sign shops who have put time and money into their business who have the best equipment, employees, a shop, can't make it anymore. These are guys that actually know the sign industry too. They've been in it for years. They know what 'second surface' application means, they know the benefits of negative space, they have a good design team or know how to design themselves, they understand how to install signs properly, which materials will last under certain conditions, etc.

I'm not saying this to disrespect anyone here, but try to see things from the other side. Many in the industry think that the sign world has been ruined because of people going around and undercutting them. Sure, you're making money now, but what about if you wanted to grow a bit? What about the day you want to expand and move into a shop? Or hire an employee? Or buy some new equipment? Are you going to raise your prices then? What will happen to all of the customers you have that are only with you because your price is so cheap?

Please don't sell yourselves short! And please take the time to learn the industry, not just vinyl, learn about what makes a good layout. Learn why negative space, contrast and balance are important.  Making decals is one thing, and if that's your cup of tea, great! But designing and fabricating a sign that is going to be viewed by thousands or millions of people and that becomes a part of our urban landscape is quite another.

Again, I'm not saying this to offend anyone, just some food for thought.

I can't count the number of times I have had perople tell me that the bigger sign shops treated them badly...acted as if they didn't care for teh business..the job wasn't big enough to be bothered with,etc. I myself had this happen years ago before I got into the business full time. I actually had one guy say to me "why should I bother with a $200 banner when I can make $4000 in an afternoon  installing a commercial sign?"

And that,in a nutshell, is the problem...it's not the prices, it's the unwillingness to do the smaller jobs. And THAT is why people are coming to me and others like me.

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  Hi ,

  I'm not sure you understood . Any business has new people venturing into that sector . Low overhead & being hungry is how most people get started . Read how Fellers got started ... somewhat of a rags to riches event  :thumbsup: .That is basic business practices unless backed by much money or a banker . Once the business is established & has the financial burdens of a legit business ( overhead )  they fit into your description . Small owner/operator business fill a niche just as the big companies do . A small business is never going to take work away from a big company that is set up to do any size job or any amount.. they may sub some work to that business . A big business is not going to take the 1 or 2 decal per customer business from the small company because they seldom have the time or motive .

  You say " That's exactly the problem with the industry. Sign shops who have put time and money into their business who have the best equipment, employees, a shop, can't make it anymore. "  That is really the point ! When hard times come around , shops like that sometimes fail , but the shops that don't have all that overhead & are able to charge less wind up being in business when things turn around . I have seen it hundreds of time .

  It is easy to buy $500 worth of equipment & vinyl from USCutter & make decent money , but it takes much more to be an established business with real business costs like rent , health insurance etc & the ability to do quanity especially with modern stuff like digitial printing .

John! might be seeing this business cycle for the 1rst time as an owner ( that is what it sounds like to me  :rolleyes: ) , but many people here have said what I just did .

just as you said , not meant to offend , just some food for thought  :thumbsup:

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And that's fine, I totally understand that. But don't sell yourself short on the $200 banner then. Stay inline with the industry. Don't undercut prices just to get the job. You won't be doing anyone a favor, including yourself and your customer.

Again, I'm not saying this to anybody in particular. Everyone has their niche in this business. But a cutter and some vinyl alone won't turn you into a good sign maker or a good business man.

:thumbsup:

I'm really only saying all of this to help you and help the business. Not to slam anyone.

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Hey SignAmigo ,

It is nice to talk with people like you that are not offensive & can disagree without getting haughty . You did crack me up when you said to John " You won't be doing anyone a favor, including yourself and your customer. " I understand what you mean by not doing any favor to oneself , but I have never seen a customer who minds paying much less for the same product , have you ? This forum is mainly beginners , small business type & some like me who do several things . " BIG " business practices do not apply because there are not many of them here if any . Another note .. John is probably making as much % of profit doing it at $200 as some shops charging whatever they are charging .

  The botom line is vinyl costs less than 50 cents per square foot RTA ( per color ) & even if you buy the 1rst "industrial " cutter from USCutter , a Co-Pam @ $750  plus $250 in vinyl & supplies ... VERY hard not to make profit no matter what is charged . I feel a great sense of accomplishment making truck door signs for others , then realizing I made $49 in profit makes me feel even better .  :thumbsup:

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SignAmigo, you bring up some good points, and did so respectfully for the most part.

Yes, it's true most on this forum do this as a hobby, side-business or run a small sign shop and don't have the overhead of a "real" sign shop.  I classify myself as a hobby guy doing a few odd jobs if they come my way. Really, I just enjoy doing it more than anything. 

However, I cut my teeth in the sign industry working for a pretty large full-fledged sign shop.  I was a welder/fabricator/installer that made and installed every type of signage imaginable (monument signs, cabinets, channel letters, awnings, neon, etc...).  Many of the jobs I worked on took weeks, if not months to fabricate from start to finish.  We outsourced nothing, there was no job too big, and I've spent a good amount of time at the business end of an 80' crane doing sign installation and service. So, I do have a bit of knowledge in the sign industry.

I just get a little edgy when someone talks about "learning the sign industry" or seeing things from "the other side."  Many times those making these comments are running a relatively small sign shop that is just as guilty in bringing industry prices down because they don't have the level of overhead (plant/equip/people) to offer every service a full-fledged sign shop has (cranes, service trucks, sheet metal equipment/tools, CAD/CAM, cutters/printers, mig/tig/stick/spot welders, presses, paint booth, shipping warehouse, neon benders, fabricators, installers, estimators, sales team, graphic designers etc...).  It's all relative, get my drift?

If someone chooses to offer sign related services (mainly vinyl on this forum) and can provide the same quality for less money because they don't have overhead, that's just good business on their part.  This is nothing new, and it happens in almost every facet of business.  If there is money to be made, competition will increase, technology almost always makes it less expensive to produce the end product, and economics 101 kicks in.

I didn't post this to slam you, I'm just trying to make a point that every business operates at different levels in regards to the services & prices they can offer.  Best of luck in your business.

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I totally understand your point of view. We all run our businesses differently and that's ok.

But I see a lot, and I mean A LOT, of shoddy sign work now days. Bad design, poor application etc. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, but I feel that when you charge less, you tend to maybe work a little faster, cut a few more corners, not spend so much time on layout. When you charge a little more, you can spend more time on these things and not feel like you're losing money. You can create a quality sign.

Now I understand some customers just want a basic black on white banner, helvetica lettering. That's fine. But what really gets me is when you see a $10 - 20,000 pole sign that is so ugly and poorly designed it hurts to look at it, or lettering on a 2 year old vehicle that is shrinking or peeling, or again, just poorly designed.

But, I respect your business and you can run it the way you want, as long as you have fun doing it. :thumbsup:

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I agree that we all run our businesses differently . It is only OK if it run with high ethics .  I have not & would not in any business I have ever been in or will be in ... short cut to increase profit . That comes back 10X & bites you in the ass hard in my experience . I'm sure everybody here is the same way . I don't do shoddy work even if it's done for free or even if I'm loosing time & money . You are only as good as your last job in any type of business .. strange you would even think of anybody doing work like that .. that sounds like an unloyal employee instead of an owner . That is the benefit of owner/operators .. better to give than to take . The end result is loyal customers like some have said in this thread . Don't confuse low overhead with low quality . :thumbsup:

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